S*** happens...now with dyno sheets!
08-13-2009, 03:48 PM
#1
Former Vendor
Thread Starter
S*** happens...now with dyno sheets!
Hi there!
I haven't been here for a while, mostly been lurking in the 996 area recently. Many of you might still remember my 3.0l engine build thread, and the not so fortunate end my car met. I think I might have written something what happened since, but here's a short story.
After I got settled the accident with my insurance company, I started to look buyers for the running gear. To my fortune ( as it looked then ), one buyer was interested in buying the whole lot, installed to his newly built racer, imported from Der Vaterland. It had cooked the HG earlier and there were some issues in the suspension too. We got a deal, I dismantled both cars with the help from my friends, partly ( front end & engine bay ) prepped the racer for painting and fixed some weird things done to it earlier. I also got new or repaired parts replacing those that were damaged in my accident.
After installing suspension the racer got painted and meanwhile I opened the engine and replaced piston rings. In went the engine with all goodies I had had. It was early spring and the car was about to get some highwaymiles before finetuning in dyno. Unfortunately I hadn't time the to focus on the car, I spent from mid-April to end of May in work related course, most of May in Switzerland...
I managed to get it dynoed just before my course started. There I found out that the Cometic I had installed had a minor leak, pressurizing the coolant system and the only hose I hadn't replaced ( because it was the car's original ), from heater control valve to heater core, sprayed fluid like geysir when on boost...
The owner of the car isn't exactly the longest-minded one, so there was some pressure to get it on the road again, so next weekend I spent in my garage, replacing the hose and the HG. Only unused I had was a WFHG, so in it went.
Boost was set to 1.2 bar, it was run on the street and also got some track time, all the time with correct A/FR ( Thanks to John @ Vitesse, his products are marvellous out of the box! ).
Next dyno session was set to beginning of May. Car's owner brought some "friends" with him, who were "experts" in tuning and engine building. Dynoing was started from 0.8 bar to get an "accaptable" dyno sheet ( less than 300 hp ) for state inspection. Barely managed, with ½throttle and 6k rpm limit. 1.2 bar gave 330 and 1.4 360. When adjusting cam gear slightly advanced 1.4 bar gave 400hp. According to these "expert friends" this was not enough, although I told that WFGH wouldn't take more. Anyway, more were to get...and when that bloody Apexi AVC-R started to play with me, some 1,6 bar peak boost values were seen. I had set Piggyback's safety limit to 1.5 bar ( big mistake ), so there were no power gains to be seen, just bad behaviour....engine cut at 5k and so on...and a blown WFHG. Just to mention here that that turbo was to give full power between 1.4 and 1.8 bar, with correct HG, of course. And the hp curve was skyrocketing before the boost was cut at 1.4 bar.
I had to leave then for Switzerland, but I offered to open the engine again, deck the head and install a new Cometic. Email reply from one of these "expert friends" was that "the engine was not reliable" and "the powerband too narrow". OK, it had blown two HG's, the first might have been an installation issue, but the latter just pure stupidity. IMO 400hp is quite enough when on the road it starts to pull ( on boost ) at 3k... I try to find the 1.4 bar dynosheet for details.
So I got the car back when I was home for a long weekend from Switzerland, removed that engine and they took the car and it's original engine away, with that originally blown HG. Almost end of the story, I haven't heard anything directly, but the car isn't yet running, after almost three months. The owner hasn't called me, mostly because I should get some money from those extra tasks and parts that weren't included in the original deal. I had got ½ of the deal in advance, and got to keep and sell exchange parts.
And then I had this engine of mine in my garage again. I must admit that while doing a really demanding course in addtion to these issues, I was really fed up. So when I got back home, I tore the engine apart and sold it in pieces: short block / head / turbo+IC+plumbing / exhaust / clutch and so on. Only combination I still got is a complete set of Vitesse goodies: VR MAF + PB + V-flex + Wasted Spark ignition + MAP, integrated to a 951 engine harness...
Things to learn from all of this:
1) Do not start to do projects to anyone else.
2) If you do not obey rule #1, do not take that else to the dyno.
3) If you do not obey rules #1 & 2, do not listen to him, or his " experts" while tuning.
4) If you still to fail to obey all of above, you only can blame yourself.
Pete, happy owner of an aerokitted 996 C2, with BIG brakes and Bilstein Cup Car suspension....
PS: S*** just does not happen, it's created by a**holes.
I haven't been here for a while, mostly been lurking in the 996 area recently. Many of you might still remember my 3.0l engine build thread, and the not so fortunate end my car met. I think I might have written something what happened since, but here's a short story.
After I got settled the accident with my insurance company, I started to look buyers for the running gear. To my fortune ( as it looked then ), one buyer was interested in buying the whole lot, installed to his newly built racer, imported from Der Vaterland. It had cooked the HG earlier and there were some issues in the suspension too. We got a deal, I dismantled both cars with the help from my friends, partly ( front end & engine bay ) prepped the racer for painting and fixed some weird things done to it earlier. I also got new or repaired parts replacing those that were damaged in my accident.
After installing suspension the racer got painted and meanwhile I opened the engine and replaced piston rings. In went the engine with all goodies I had had. It was early spring and the car was about to get some highwaymiles before finetuning in dyno. Unfortunately I hadn't time the to focus on the car, I spent from mid-April to end of May in work related course, most of May in Switzerland...
I managed to get it dynoed just before my course started. There I found out that the Cometic I had installed had a minor leak, pressurizing the coolant system and the only hose I hadn't replaced ( because it was the car's original ), from heater control valve to heater core, sprayed fluid like geysir when on boost...
The owner of the car isn't exactly the longest-minded one, so there was some pressure to get it on the road again, so next weekend I spent in my garage, replacing the hose and the HG. Only unused I had was a WFHG, so in it went.
Boost was set to 1.2 bar, it was run on the street and also got some track time, all the time with correct A/FR ( Thanks to John @ Vitesse, his products are marvellous out of the box! ).
Next dyno session was set to beginning of May. Car's owner brought some "friends" with him, who were "experts" in tuning and engine building. Dynoing was started from 0.8 bar to get an "accaptable" dyno sheet ( less than 300 hp ) for state inspection. Barely managed, with ½throttle and 6k rpm limit. 1.2 bar gave 330 and 1.4 360. When adjusting cam gear slightly advanced 1.4 bar gave 400hp. According to these "expert friends" this was not enough, although I told that WFGH wouldn't take more. Anyway, more were to get...and when that bloody Apexi AVC-R started to play with me, some 1,6 bar peak boost values were seen. I had set Piggyback's safety limit to 1.5 bar ( big mistake ), so there were no power gains to be seen, just bad behaviour....engine cut at 5k and so on...and a blown WFHG. Just to mention here that that turbo was to give full power between 1.4 and 1.8 bar, with correct HG, of course. And the hp curve was skyrocketing before the boost was cut at 1.4 bar.
I had to leave then for Switzerland, but I offered to open the engine again, deck the head and install a new Cometic. Email reply from one of these "expert friends" was that "the engine was not reliable" and "the powerband too narrow". OK, it had blown two HG's, the first might have been an installation issue, but the latter just pure stupidity. IMO 400hp is quite enough when on the road it starts to pull ( on boost ) at 3k... I try to find the 1.4 bar dynosheet for details.
So I got the car back when I was home for a long weekend from Switzerland, removed that engine and they took the car and it's original engine away, with that originally blown HG. Almost end of the story, I haven't heard anything directly, but the car isn't yet running, after almost three months. The owner hasn't called me, mostly because I should get some money from those extra tasks and parts that weren't included in the original deal. I had got ½ of the deal in advance, and got to keep and sell exchange parts.
And then I had this engine of mine in my garage again. I must admit that while doing a really demanding course in addtion to these issues, I was really fed up. So when I got back home, I tore the engine apart and sold it in pieces: short block / head / turbo+IC+plumbing / exhaust / clutch and so on. Only combination I still got is a complete set of Vitesse goodies: VR MAF + PB + V-flex + Wasted Spark ignition + MAP, integrated to a 951 engine harness...
Things to learn from all of this:
1) Do not start to do projects to anyone else.
2) If you do not obey rule #1, do not take that else to the dyno.
3) If you do not obey rules #1 & 2, do not listen to him, or his " experts" while tuning.
4) If you still to fail to obey all of above, you only can blame yourself.
Pete, happy owner of an aerokitted 996 C2, with BIG brakes and Bilstein Cup Car suspension....
PS: S*** just does not happen, it's created by a**holes.
Last edited by pete95zhn; 08-14-2009 at 06:57 AM. Reason: Spelling
08-13-2009, 06:06 PM
#3
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Tulsa Oklahoma
Posts: 1,965
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Next time, make his "experts" work on the car and see how much power their car can put down. That's assuming they can get it fit for the street or dyno. Morons. Sorry for the pain of that situation. I'd be driven crazy!
08-13-2009, 07:21 PM
#4
Rennlist Member
Wow. You are the best-tempered seller I've ever heard of!! I would have sold the car and ran with the money. I can't believe that you did all that work, but what kind of HP/TQ numbers did the buyer expect? I guess if you want something done your way, do it yourself, right?
08-13-2009, 08:31 PM
#5
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Small
Business Sponsor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Small
Business Sponsor
Experts....yeah, anybody that professes to be an expert ...isn't.
Unless they have concrete / real results then they are just 'internet' experts.....dime a dozen.
BTW -- the 951 engines (2.5 - 3.0) have a very wide power band when set up correctly.
Unless they have concrete / real results then they are just 'internet' experts.....dime a dozen.
BTW -- the 951 engines (2.5 - 3.0) have a very wide power band when set up correctly.
08-13-2009, 09:39 PM
#6
Rennlist Member
Rule 5: Get the buyer's money, shake his hand and wave goodbye to him and your motor. 
08-14-2009, 03:09 AM
#7
I feel sad for Pete. I can be blamed also on this situation, because i gave a lead to Pete that our "friend" might be interested to buy his engine & some other goodies. This car came in my place last September after a blown HG. The original deal was to get car ready in the beginning of next May. I told the owner i can guarantee car to be ready by then, but i do not like if he rush me. I have done some work for his previous 951, so i kind of expected that. When he started to rush me after one week, i just wanted to jump out of fixing that car and then Pete jumped in to this project. When Pete started to tear down both cars i was also helping him a pit, i put here some pictures of this project. I saw the owner of this car couple of weeks ago at PCF track event and asked him where's the car. He answered me he "higly skilled" mechanics have got a special HG from Italy but they are still waiting for some special head bolts from the same manufacturer. His mechanics had told original Porsche bolts are not way to go and these italian made ones are the only possibility to go. I asked him have he ever heard about Raceware or ARP... Our conversation only lasted about 45 seconds, obviously he was not eager to have more conversation with me. Well i am glad i do not have to involve this "friend's" project any longer, i hope Pete get his money soon and can put this whole issue behind him.
From this
To this
Pete's engine fitted int "friends" car
"friends" car leaving my place
From this
To this
Pete's engine fitted int "friends" car
"friends" car leaving my place
Trending Topics
08-14-2009, 06:52 AM
#8
Former Vendor
Thread Starter
Found the dyno sheets. 1.35 bar boost stayed steady, but @ 1.40 peaked after 5,5k / 1.6bar, clearly visible. Unfortunately there's no boost / A/FR graphs visible...because of the hastiness of the owner I had to find some dyno, not the one I wanted to use... Both are in VRPB datalogs, but I haven't got any interest to view them, maybe someday.
Indeed the engine was processed LArt-style, eg. the head is now in Sweden, rest around Finland. All I now have is Vitesse engine management. Anyone interested?
About those graphs, local style: RWkW, FWNm, FWhp. Vitesse base maps for fuel and ignition, cam gear ~3deg advanced. Boost control by Apexi AVC-R, I really can't recommend. And real life performance, on the road, was at least for me just astonishing...instant spool-up @ 3k/3rd gear.
For comparison, I addad also a chart from 3 years ago, 2,5l modified 27/6 with GURU AFMLink.
Indeed the engine was processed LArt-style, eg. the head is now in Sweden, rest around Finland. All I now have is Vitesse engine management. Anyone interested?
About those graphs, local style: RWkW, FWNm, FWhp. Vitesse base maps for fuel and ignition, cam gear ~3deg advanced. Boost control by Apexi AVC-R, I really can't recommend. And real life performance, on the road, was at least for me just astonishing...instant spool-up @ 3k/3rd gear.
For comparison, I addad also a chart from 3 years ago, 2,5l modified 27/6 with GURU AFMLink.
Last edited by pete95zhn; 08-16-2009 at 10:49 AM. Reason: Pictures uploaded
08-14-2009, 07:03 AM
#9
Rennlist Member
Really sorry to read about your car and it's demise Pete. I hope you got most of your money back at least on the parts. I'm sure someone will buy the Vitesse parts as they're always good.
Glad to hear you're enjoying the new car. Post some new pics sometime.
Glad to hear you're enjoying the new car. Post some new pics sometime.
08-14-2009, 07:08 AM
#10
Former Vendor
Thread Starter
08-14-2009, 08:24 AM
#11
Former Vendor
Thread Starter
450-500 FWHP @ 1.6 bar, which is quite obtainable looking those dyno graphs. Actually we were talking about setting the boost to 1.2 bar ( ie ~350 hp ) for traction, with a possibility to "overboost" to 1.4bar ( ~420 hp ) for overtaking 996 cup cars...
08-14-2009, 08:45 AM
#12
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Pete, I'm sorry you had to go through this. Not a good place to be in, but it sounds that you made the best out of it and you managed without the so-called "friend". Let me know if I can help in any way.
A few things to add to your list:
- Don't do business with a "friend".
- The saying "No good deed ever goes unpunished" is very true with some people.
On a good note: you have a great looking car, enjoy it. Most of your parts are gone, the rest will sell soon. You have lots of "good" friends and it sound that you and Olli are better off without the racer "friend".
A few things to add to your list:
- Don't do business with a "friend".
- The saying "No good deed ever goes unpunished" is very true with some people.
On a good note: you have a great looking car, enjoy it. Most of your parts are gone, the rest will sell soon. You have lots of "good" friends and it sound that you and Olli are better off without the racer "friend".
08-14-2009, 09:25 AM
#14
Rennlist Member
Very nice car Pete. Those pics look like something out of the Factory Brochure...and of course the obligatory one of the BIG REDS!!
As John says, you've got plenty of other friends. You just haven't met them face to face yet.
Best of luck with this one.
As John says, you've got plenty of other friends. You just haven't met them face to face yet.
Best of luck with this one.
08-14-2009, 11:02 AM
#15
Race Car
Found the dyno sheets. 1.35 bar boost stayed steady, but @ 1.40 peaked after 5,5k / 1.6bar, clearly visible. Unfortunately there's no boost / A/FR graphs visible...because of the hastiness of the owner I had to find some dyno, not the one I wanted to use... Both are in VRPB datalogs, but I haven't got any interest to view them, maybe someday.
Indeed the engine was processed LArt-style, eg. the head is now in Sweden, rest around Finland. All I now have is Vitesse engine management. Anyone interested?
About those graphs, local style: RWkW, FWNm, FWhp. Vitesse base maps for fuel and ignition, cam gear ~3deg advanced. Boost control by Apexi AVC-R, I really can't recommend. And real life performance, on the road, was at least for me just astonishing...instant spool-up @ 3k/3rd gear.
Indeed the engine was processed LArt-style, eg. the head is now in Sweden, rest around Finland. All I now have is Vitesse engine management. Anyone interested?
About those graphs, local style: RWkW, FWNm, FWhp. Vitesse base maps for fuel and ignition, cam gear ~3deg advanced. Boost control by Apexi AVC-R, I really can't recommend. And real life performance, on the road, was at least for me just astonishing...instant spool-up @ 3k/3rd gear.