What to do next???
03-31-2009, 03:32 AM
#32
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Then follow John's advice.
BTW, perhaps it's time to stop screwing around with it and go have some fun in it.
03-31-2009, 06:22 AM
#33
Nordschleife Master
The question is - how many street miles are you doing right now??
These cars are way too old anyway to have as a daily driver. And it's just annoying to be in a 951 going back and forth to work in stop and go traffic - even if it's a 100% stock car.
As a daily driver I always enjoy my new Audi sooo much more. It's definatly "quicker" in traffic, more comfortable and a lot more practical.
So when do I want to drive the 951? Some nights when the roads are empty, an occasional drive to work, an occasional drive to get an ice cream and when it's time to get to the track.
I wouldn't even drive a 951 on a long road trip, even if it's stock. The Audi handles the Autobahn in 200+ km/h without drama.
So I found out for myslef that I don't want a full compromise. I want something closer to a track car, but still road legal. And that is the way I'm heading with the green hunter.
These cars are way too old anyway to have as a daily driver. And it's just annoying to be in a 951 going back and forth to work in stop and go traffic - even if it's a 100% stock car.
As a daily driver I always enjoy my new Audi sooo much more. It's definatly "quicker" in traffic, more comfortable and a lot more practical.
So when do I want to drive the 951? Some nights when the roads are empty, an occasional drive to work, an occasional drive to get an ice cream and when it's time to get to the track.
I wouldn't even drive a 951 on a long road trip, even if it's stock. The Audi handles the Autobahn in 200+ km/h without drama.
So I found out for myslef that I don't want a full compromise. I want something closer to a track car, but still road legal. And that is the way I'm heading with the green hunter.
03-31-2009, 07:11 AM
#34
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Pat , I agree with a lot of the statements made here.
- A dedicated track car will as a rule of thumb be at least about 5 sec/lap faster as a track/ road car. I can can say for my own car, it is so stiff and hard, it is way past being drivable on the open road.
- Seconds gained by making a car stiffer wider and lighter are a lot cheaper then increasing engine power. If I think about price levels around here, 10k would get me a completely seamwelded, acid dipped, caged, cut down, uniballed, widened chassis, and even pay most of a quality race suspension.
And the good thing about it: This investment lasts a lot longer then money put into an engine
- I do not know how good a driver you are. I myself am probably one of the slowest learners around, driving my car now for the sixth season. I have compared my laptimes with cars of similar HP/Weight ratio, and set myself targets based on those references, before I increased HP. HP makes you a sloppy driver.
- a good datalogger, eg. the one from Race Technology (no affiliation) is a great tool to improve both your car and your driving. Entry and exit speeds, lateral G's and many more are very interesting to study, comparing yourself lap to lap, event to event, or comparing yourself with an instructor/ experienced driver.
- Trailering your track car around is probably a good idea. The less you are afraid of crashing the car, the faster you will be.
- A dedicated track car will as a rule of thumb be at least about 5 sec/lap faster as a track/ road car. I can can say for my own car, it is so stiff and hard, it is way past being drivable on the open road.
- Seconds gained by making a car stiffer wider and lighter are a lot cheaper then increasing engine power. If I think about price levels around here, 10k would get me a completely seamwelded, acid dipped, caged, cut down, uniballed, widened chassis, and even pay most of a quality race suspension.
And the good thing about it: This investment lasts a lot longer then money put into an engine
- I do not know how good a driver you are. I myself am probably one of the slowest learners around, driving my car now for the sixth season. I have compared my laptimes with cars of similar HP/Weight ratio, and set myself targets based on those references, before I increased HP. HP makes you a sloppy driver.
- a good datalogger, eg. the one from Race Technology (no affiliation) is a great tool to improve both your car and your driving. Entry and exit speeds, lateral G's and many more are very interesting to study, comparing yourself lap to lap, event to event, or comparing yourself with an instructor/ experienced driver.
- Trailering your track car around is probably a good idea. The less you are afraid of crashing the car, the faster you will be.
03-31-2009, 08:21 AM
#35
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Thread Starter
I'd like to thank you all for your thoughtful contributions. I pretty much agree with everything you are all saying. My plans will be dictated by my finances. When I find out what these are in the near future, I will draft up some potentials and just weed out the weak options.
I realise that I don't need a killer road car. We are so heavily policed if you go much over the speed limit. There are too many more cars on the roads than when I was a kid, and such a high proportion of people are terrible drivers. I don't need the prestige of owning a Porsche either. I still love driving my car on the road but less and less so.
If I can raise enough money I will almost certainly do a proper trackcar. That was my plan about 18 months ago when I commssioned an even crazier engine than the 3L that is the subject of this discussion. That was going to go into a dedicated trackcar with lots of nice special parts such as a factory rebuilt 996GT2 tranny. That's why I bought the '86. That motor is about 1/2 done, but unless a minor miracle happens, it won't reach fruition anytime soon which is a pity from a technical viewpoint as you all would have liked to see that one documented.
Hans I wish we could get the value of our investment like you are saying you can get for eg $10k That is so cheap I could cry. Same in the US. I don't know why things are just so expensive out here. I priced some cages today and a decent full weld in unit fitted will be easily nudging $8k just for the cage. That will not include the stripping of the car's sound deadening either. To get all the other mods you list would cost easily that again out here, if not considerably more.
I know my skill level is decent and I've not had the pros try and jump out of the car when I've done laps with them, but I'd love to do one of those race schools they have in the US or other similarly equipped countries. We don't have anything near that level of competency. I'm visiting the US later this year. If they're not stupidly expensive I might try and do one of these.
Even if I decide to do a trackcar, I still have a couple of options of which way to go. The LHD S2 has no sunroof and seems like a very straight car. The Black '86 has the engine already out, crappy paint and road registration. I was sort of hanging onto the notion of being still able to drive to the track, but am coming around to the trailer situation. I think I can store this all at work. If not, storage is also expensive in Sydney.
So I'll regroup in a week or so and start making some solid plans.
Thanks again.
I realise that I don't need a killer road car. We are so heavily policed if you go much over the speed limit. There are too many more cars on the roads than when I was a kid, and such a high proportion of people are terrible drivers. I don't need the prestige of owning a Porsche either. I still love driving my car on the road but less and less so.
If I can raise enough money I will almost certainly do a proper trackcar. That was my plan about 18 months ago when I commssioned an even crazier engine than the 3L that is the subject of this discussion. That was going to go into a dedicated trackcar with lots of nice special parts such as a factory rebuilt 996GT2 tranny. That's why I bought the '86. That motor is about 1/2 done, but unless a minor miracle happens, it won't reach fruition anytime soon which is a pity from a technical viewpoint as you all would have liked to see that one documented.
Hans I wish we could get the value of our investment like you are saying you can get for eg $10k That is so cheap I could cry. Same in the US. I don't know why things are just so expensive out here. I priced some cages today and a decent full weld in unit fitted will be easily nudging $8k just for the cage. That will not include the stripping of the car's sound deadening either. To get all the other mods you list would cost easily that again out here, if not considerably more.
I know my skill level is decent and I've not had the pros try and jump out of the car when I've done laps with them, but I'd love to do one of those race schools they have in the US or other similarly equipped countries. We don't have anything near that level of competency. I'm visiting the US later this year. If they're not stupidly expensive I might try and do one of these.
Even if I decide to do a trackcar, I still have a couple of options of which way to go. The LHD S2 has no sunroof and seems like a very straight car. The Black '86 has the engine already out, crappy paint and road registration. I was sort of hanging onto the notion of being still able to drive to the track, but am coming around to the trailer situation. I think I can store this all at work. If not, storage is also expensive in Sydney.
So I'll regroup in a week or so and start making some solid plans.
Thanks again.
03-31-2009, 11:09 AM
#36
I would transfer the race parts onto your other car and bring back the grey car, which seems to be really nice, to a relatively civil appearance. I would keep the "big" engine in the grey car too.
IMO you should stick to a relatively stock-ish, consumable engine on the race car, as the costs for potential engine rebuilds/blow ups should be less bad than with more exotic hardware.
IMO you should stick to a relatively stock-ish, consumable engine on the race car, as the costs for potential engine rebuilds/blow ups should be less bad than with more exotic hardware.
03-31-2009, 11:29 AM
#37
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I would transfer the race parts onto your other car and bring back the grey car, which seems to be really nice, to a relatively civil appearance. I would keep the "big" engine in the grey car too.
IMO you should stick to a relatively stock-ish, consumable engine on the race car, as the costs for potential engine rebuilds/blow ups should be less bad than with more exotic hardware.
IMO you should stick to a relatively stock-ish, consumable engine on the race car, as the costs for potential engine rebuilds/blow ups should be less bad than with more exotic hardware.
+1.
Originally Posted by Patrick
Hans I wish we could get the value of our investment like you are saying you can get for eg $10k
03-31-2009, 12:06 PM
#38
Race Car
Patrick,
since you started this thread I'll expound on my thoughts in the other one.
It is not going to be an overnight idea anyway, so really you need to have a longer term plan. Like I said before when you really get down to it, to make a nice race car you will only have a tub and cage to start with.
If I were in your shoes I would:
put the 3.0 in Gray car run boost lower at the smaller tracks or pretty much on the track. The extra TQ should help some.
get used to tuning the standalone
work on driving skills
start with a either a current tub or have a caged tub done elsewhere and imported if less $$
make it as light as possible
use the 2.5 and current setup (tuning wise) in it for the first season (maybe swap suspension bits or get new)
get a truck and trailer
when you feel the need to go all out in the race car, swap the 3.0 (I doubt it will be needed for some time)
Sell some parts to fund the tub $$ transaxle and other 3.0 parts
IMO Having a full on race car means extra engine, parts, and such, along with a place to do it all and equipment to haul it. Having gone down this road before I will never do it again. Sometimes you just have to settle for what your car is capable of. However if you do plan on doing it, factor in much more $$ than what you initially think.
To be competitive in any high hp racing is very expensive. I learned this the hard way. Even when you can do many things yourself, just having the necessary parts and equipment gets pretty ridiculous.
my .02 ....... or in the case of my highest level PSCA racing season 200k
since you started this thread I'll expound on my thoughts in the other one.
It is not going to be an overnight idea anyway, so really you need to have a longer term plan. Like I said before when you really get down to it, to make a nice race car you will only have a tub and cage to start with.
If I were in your shoes I would:
put the 3.0 in Gray car run boost lower at the smaller tracks or pretty much on the track. The extra TQ should help some.
get used to tuning the standalone
work on driving skills
start with a either a current tub or have a caged tub done elsewhere and imported if less $$
make it as light as possible
use the 2.5 and current setup (tuning wise) in it for the first season (maybe swap suspension bits or get new)
get a truck and trailer
when you feel the need to go all out in the race car, swap the 3.0 (I doubt it will be needed for some time)
Sell some parts to fund the tub $$ transaxle and other 3.0 parts
IMO Having a full on race car means extra engine, parts, and such, along with a place to do it all and equipment to haul it. Having gone down this road before I will never do it again. Sometimes you just have to settle for what your car is capable of. However if you do plan on doing it, factor in much more $$ than what you initially think.
To be competitive in any high hp racing is very expensive. I learned this the hard way. Even when you can do many things yourself, just having the necessary parts and equipment gets pretty ridiculous.
my .02 ....... or in the case of my highest level PSCA racing season 200k
03-31-2009, 03:18 PM
#40
Race Director
Just as some reference.
The best lap time I tured in my stock 944 Turbo S on stree tires at my home track PIR 1:19. About 1 year later with little change in driving skill I took a stripped 944 NA with Races tires on it to the same track. I was turning low 1:20's with ease. All this was due to the lower weight of the car as the NA still ran stock springs and stock shocks. So stripping the car was worth 100 hp. Now of of course my 944 NA with stiffer springs and good shocks is running 1:13's at the same track. The only difference is 3x spring rates and a much improved driver.
Something to consider.
The best lap time I tured in my stock 944 Turbo S on stree tires at my home track PIR 1:19. About 1 year later with little change in driving skill I took a stripped 944 NA with Races tires on it to the same track. I was turning low 1:20's with ease. All this was due to the lower weight of the car as the NA still ran stock springs and stock shocks. So stripping the car was worth 100 hp. Now of of course my 944 NA with stiffer springs and good shocks is running 1:13's at the same track. The only difference is 3x spring rates and a much improved driver.
Something to consider.
03-31-2009, 04:30 PM
#41
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Cue head spinning icon....
Lots more good advice...
Lots more good advice...
03-31-2009, 05:35 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
Tires... maybe put some Hoosiers on it next time? Should be worth at least a few seconds vs. the R888's right? If you can't beat them with power, suspension, or driving skill, use better tires!
03-31-2009, 06:49 PM
#44
Nordschleife Master
03-31-2009, 08:34 PM
#45
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Chris, if only I could. Things are so much easier / cheaper in the US. It's criminal how hard / expensive things are here.
ot I need to send you those pics. I'm at work now. I'll try from here otherwise it will be tonight my time.