What to do next???
03-30-2009, 05:39 PM
#1
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What to do next???
You're probably sick of all my threads of late. So sorry in advance, but I'm at some crossroads.
I did an event last Sunday called Superlap. It's basically a pro run timed event and gets some seriously quick and powerful cars out there. It's a Japanese themed event and therefore 98% of the cars were also Japanese. We're talking big powered Nissans, Evos, Toyotas etc. These cars are more powerful, lighter, stiffer, all wheel drive etc. Basically just faster, better handling, better stopping vehicles. I pushed my car very hard and was not in the top half of the field of about 70 cars. Finished about 45th out of 70.
My point being is that I can't push this car much harder without it being unsafe. I have the new engine due to be finished very soon and I am realising that it would be virtually futile to put it in my car as it is. It will be way too fast for the chassis and brakes, plus I don't have a cage. This is my dilemma. Finances are a lot tighter than they once were. So........
Fact. Big hp motor coming.
Fact. Current motor is pushing the car's handling and stopping capacity now.
Fact. New motor equals big increase in speed potentials.
Fact. Safety is now entering the equation much more prominently.
Fact. Budget running very low.
Possibilities.
Do nothing and hope that it all works out. = Burying head in sand method seldom works.
Create trackcar out of a Black '86 that I have. = Lots more dollars.
Do up Black '86 and sell. = Not a great time to be selling a car.
Strip and cage current car. = Basically ruin nice road car, but a car that is becoming more like a race car each month.
Hope that caged shell comes up for sale. = Not likely in this part of the world.
I am thinking that I should build up the '86 into a trackcar at this point, but it will involve quite a few more dollars over and above what I've already spent to date (a lot!) on this car and motors. This all sounds so much easier, cheaper and more accessible in the US. Nice shells or rolling race cars come up for sale quite often and way cheaper than we would pay over here. Same for getting a decent cage. What I would like is to strip the car, have it acid dipped, seam welded, caged and painted. I'm guessing this will cost well in excess of $12k but my feeling is that if you're going to do it, do it once and correctly.
Any advice is very welcome.
thanks
I did an event last Sunday called Superlap. It's basically a pro run timed event and gets some seriously quick and powerful cars out there. It's a Japanese themed event and therefore 98% of the cars were also Japanese. We're talking big powered Nissans, Evos, Toyotas etc. These cars are more powerful, lighter, stiffer, all wheel drive etc. Basically just faster, better handling, better stopping vehicles. I pushed my car very hard and was not in the top half of the field of about 70 cars. Finished about 45th out of 70.
My point being is that I can't push this car much harder without it being unsafe. I have the new engine due to be finished very soon and I am realising that it would be virtually futile to put it in my car as it is. It will be way too fast for the chassis and brakes, plus I don't have a cage. This is my dilemma. Finances are a lot tighter than they once were. So........
Fact. Big hp motor coming.
Fact. Current motor is pushing the car's handling and stopping capacity now.
Fact. New motor equals big increase in speed potentials.
Fact. Safety is now entering the equation much more prominently.
Fact. Budget running very low.
Possibilities.
Do nothing and hope that it all works out. = Burying head in sand method seldom works.
Create trackcar out of a Black '86 that I have. = Lots more dollars.
Do up Black '86 and sell. = Not a great time to be selling a car.
Strip and cage current car. = Basically ruin nice road car, but a car that is becoming more like a race car each month.
Hope that caged shell comes up for sale. = Not likely in this part of the world.
I am thinking that I should build up the '86 into a trackcar at this point, but it will involve quite a few more dollars over and above what I've already spent to date (a lot!) on this car and motors. This all sounds so much easier, cheaper and more accessible in the US. Nice shells or rolling race cars come up for sale quite often and way cheaper than we would pay over here. Same for getting a decent cage. What I would like is to strip the car, have it acid dipped, seam welded, caged and painted. I'm guessing this will cost well in excess of $12k but my feeling is that if you're going to do it, do it once and correctly.
Any advice is very welcome.
thanks
03-30-2009, 05:45 PM
#2
Drifting
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Before you go down the modification route, are you sure that you are getting all you can out of the cars current capabilities? I know the guys of the racing forum would advocate a pro coach as there could be tenths or even whole seconds you are leaving on the table which are almost free?
What tires did you end up running vs competition? If you are on 888 and they are on faster dots or slicks there could be seconds there?
Do you have data acquasition? This may show you where you are dropping (if at all) time and help you improve
What tires did you end up running vs competition? If you are on 888 and they are on faster dots or slicks there could be seconds there?
Do you have data acquasition? This may show you where you are dropping (if at all) time and help you improve
03-30-2009, 05:50 PM
#3
Drifting
Pat,
Do you want a track car, or a street/track car. I have a rollcage in my street/track car without the bars coming across the door. I have the same suspension as you, and like having the ability to drive the car legally on the street.
I've owned EVO's, Modded M3's, and a few other cars. My goals have never been to have a track only car. My current motor with race gas is in the consistent 500 - 550 hp wheel hp range, and have a 968six speed, sticky tires, and a good LSD. Don't feel like the car is overpowered.
Know that to get our cars up to the handling ability of the new cars will cost a small fortune. My EVO as stock handled much better than my current 951 below 100mph. To get a 350Z to handle as well as our cars and be as powerful is an expensive proposition.
Having a track dedicated car requires mucho money, good toy hauler, and another vehicle to hual it to the track.
I saw your driving videos, and you are a good driver. I say just have fun with your new motor and see how things go from there.
Regards,
George
Do you want a track car, or a street/track car. I have a rollcage in my street/track car without the bars coming across the door. I have the same suspension as you, and like having the ability to drive the car legally on the street.
I've owned EVO's, Modded M3's, and a few other cars. My goals have never been to have a track only car. My current motor with race gas is in the consistent 500 - 550 hp wheel hp range, and have a 968six speed, sticky tires, and a good LSD. Don't feel like the car is overpowered.
Know that to get our cars up to the handling ability of the new cars will cost a small fortune. My EVO as stock handled much better than my current 951 below 100mph. To get a 350Z to handle as well as our cars and be as powerful is an expensive proposition.
Having a track dedicated car requires mucho money, good toy hauler, and another vehicle to hual it to the track.
I saw your driving videos, and you are a good driver. I say just have fun with your new motor and see how things go from there.
Regards,
George
03-30-2009, 06:00 PM
#4
Drifting
Ditto on some driving lessons, and get the best race tread you can. Are you running Pagid orange or similar race pads? Do you have super blue brake fluid? Can you add wider tires?
Another option you may consider is running a smaller than recommended turbo on your 3.0+ larger motor. You won't have the same peak HP, but the tq out of the corners and your larger displacement might keep you out front on some tracks.
Must get back to work.
George
Another option you may consider is running a smaller than recommended turbo on your 3.0+ larger motor. You won't have the same peak HP, but the tq out of the corners and your larger displacement might keep you out front on some tracks.
Must get back to work.
George
03-30-2009, 06:06 PM
#5
Rocket Scientist
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That's a tough call, Patrick. I'm surprised to hear that you didn't do better with all those other cars at Superlap. The weight of the 944 must be hurting it a bit. Or what do you think it is? Obviously, your engine is less then optimal right now (2.5 with a large-ish turbo).
It seems you've been slowly headed in the track only direction. I would say build up your other car. From what Dave tells me (and from seeing in pictures), your street car is in really good condition. And as you've mentioned, it would be a shame to ruin a nice street car. Are you planning on keeping the gray car for yourself? Would you consider removing some of the aftermarket parts to swap over to the black car? You could always put the gray car back to stock and sell for a decent coin. That cost would help cover a lot of the black build. But that would also leave you car-less for track days until the black car is finished.
Like I said, tough call. It really just comes down to funding. What can you do, what can't you do? Then decide from there.
It seems you've been slowly headed in the track only direction. I would say build up your other car. From what Dave tells me (and from seeing in pictures), your street car is in really good condition. And as you've mentioned, it would be a shame to ruin a nice street car. Are you planning on keeping the gray car for yourself? Would you consider removing some of the aftermarket parts to swap over to the black car? You could always put the gray car back to stock and sell for a decent coin. That cost would help cover a lot of the black build. But that would also leave you car-less for track days until the black car is finished.
Like I said, tough call. It really just comes down to funding. What can you do, what can't you do? Then decide from there.
03-30-2009, 06:11 PM
#6
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Patrick, I'm a PCA and BMW CCA instructor. I'll share with you what I tell my students.
I'll start with the most important items and work my way down the list.
#1 - SAFETY - Not sure if you are aware of the saying "if you are a racer, it's not 'IF' you wreck, it's 'when' you wreck". Safety equipments are a MUST, unless you don't value your body! This is one area you should do correctly!
#2 - Track events and playing with cars should be fun. It's a hobby after all! Are you having fun? Or are you stressing?
#3 - Do you think there is someone else out there that can turn a better lap time than you can in your own car? If so, work on "you". Modifying the car every time you go to the track is fun! Are the mods helping your lap time, or is it your driving? How consistent are you from one lap to the next?
#3 - All the power in the world is only worth what you can put down and manage safely. If you are over powering your suspension, tires and brakes. More power will do you no good. You will actually be slower.
#4 - having a dual purpose street/track will always be a compromise. A dedicated track car will be safer and faster. (A full cage in a street car is not practical and unsafe).
It sounds to me, that one of your cars should get all the goodies on it, keep the second car as a street car.
I'll start with the most important items and work my way down the list.
#1 - SAFETY - Not sure if you are aware of the saying "if you are a racer, it's not 'IF' you wreck, it's 'when' you wreck". Safety equipments are a MUST, unless you don't value your body! This is one area you should do correctly!
#2 - Track events and playing with cars should be fun. It's a hobby after all! Are you having fun? Or are you stressing?
#3 - Do you think there is someone else out there that can turn a better lap time than you can in your own car? If so, work on "you". Modifying the car every time you go to the track is fun! Are the mods helping your lap time, or is it your driving? How consistent are you from one lap to the next?
#3 - All the power in the world is only worth what you can put down and manage safely. If you are over powering your suspension, tires and brakes. More power will do you no good. You will actually be slower.
#4 - having a dual purpose street/track will always be a compromise. A dedicated track car will be safer and faster. (A full cage in a street car is not practical and unsafe).
It sounds to me, that one of your cars should get all the goodies on it, keep the second car as a street car.
Last edited by fast951; 03-30-2009 at 06:32 PM.
03-30-2009, 06:30 PM
#7
Rennlist Member
kinda the same crossroads im at- maybe down a step. The car has a full interior and working a/c, cruise etc but hp wise is probl. close to 400rwhp after a tune. I have five point harnesses and a redline bar and seats. The car does great on the track but is still capable of much more if i were to strip it and cage it. Driving it on the street with the heavy springs is still alittle rough though so it doesnt do many long trips. I have found inspiration in some local club racers that run around here like Jim Child- i had him as an instructor my second year doing DE events and his car was awsome. Stock 968, stock motor, lots of suspension mods, working a/c, full interior-carpet! and still one of the fastest cars out there. For this reason i keep trying to improve my times and car without stripping it of all its nicetys. If you like your car as it is dont compare it to some wild high hp race cars- there will always be someone faster. When it comes down to it a race car is just that- track only- i like driving mine.
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03-30-2009, 06:35 PM
#8
Drifting
That was a helpful post. I got something out of it. Thanks for sharing your experience. I'm always having fun at the track. I know there are MANY drivers that can drive my car faster. I'm done with my car for now, at least till I catch up with it's potential.
George
George
Patrick, I'm a PCA and BMW CCA instructor. I'll share with you what I tell my students.
I'll start with the most important items and work my way down the list.
#1 - SAFETY - Not sure if you are aware of the saying "if you are a racer, it's not 'IF' you wreck, it's 'when' you wreck". Safety equipments are a MUST, unless you don't value your body! This is one area you should do correctly!
#2 - Track events and playing with cars should be fun. It's a hobby after all! Are you having fun? Or are you stressing?
#3 - Do you think there is someone else out there that can turn a better lap time than you can in your own car? If so, work on "you". Modifying the car every time you go to the track is fun! Are the mods helping your lap time, or is it your driving? How consistent are you from one lap to the next?
#3 - All the power in the world is only worth what you can put down and manage safely. If you are over powering your suspension, tires and brakes. More power will do you no good. You will actually be slower.
#4 - having a dual purpose street/track will always be a compromise. A dedicated track car will be safer and faster. (A full cage in a street car is not practical and unsafe).
It sounds to me, that one of your cars should get all the goodies on it, keep the second car as a street car.
I'll start with the most important items and work my way down the list.
#1 - SAFETY - Not sure if you are aware of the saying "if you are a racer, it's not 'IF' you wreck, it's 'when' you wreck". Safety equipments are a MUST, unless you don't value your body! This is one area you should do correctly!
#2 - Track events and playing with cars should be fun. It's a hobby after all! Are you having fun? Or are you stressing?
#3 - Do you think there is someone else out there that can turn a better lap time than you can in your own car? If so, work on "you". Modifying the car every time you go to the track is fun! Are the mods helping your lap time, or is it your driving? How consistent are you from one lap to the next?
#3 - All the power in the world is only worth what you can put down and manage safely. If you are over powering your suspension, tires and brakes. More power will do you no good. You will actually be slower.
#4 - having a dual purpose street/track will always be a compromise. A dedicated track car will be safer and faster. (A full cage in a street car is not practical and unsafe).
It sounds to me, that one of your cars should get all the goodies on it, keep the second car as a street car.
03-30-2009, 06:54 PM
#9
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I would also like to echo was FAST951 said, and add my 2 cents:
In comparing Traqmate data from my friends stripped down Mazda MX-6 and Mazda Miata, I can clearly see that straight line speed does very little to improve track times. It’s the area under the curve that matters (he..he...he…). What I mean by this is that a heavier car with lots of horsepower will achieve faster straighline speed , but will have to slow down more than the lighter cars to enter the twiesties. The area under the MHP vs Distance curve generated by Traqmate is a great way to compare the performance of two different cars.
As an example, at Thunderhill raceway, my friend’s MX-6 can only reach a top speed of 110 mph on the front straight, as compared to 130+ for my 951, however he can generally enter most turns 6 to 10 mph faster than I can. His lap times are much better than mine. When we compare his Traqmate MPH vs. Distance data overlaid onto mine, it is obvious to see that I am loosing most at turn entry and mid-corner, even my track out speeds are lower, but with my turbo I can quickly bring up my speed again and start catching him until we reach another corner, then he pulls away again, this continues turn after turn. So at the racetrack with lots of twisties. Light weight cars rule.
So in terms of improving track performance, here is my 2 cents:
1. learn the track really really well, analyze it to see which corners are most important to lap times (e.g. corners leading into long straights)
2. weight reduction, weight reduction (better than adding HP)
3. big sticky tires e.g Hankook Z-214’s C-51 compound,
4. LSD transmission
In comparing Traqmate data from my friends stripped down Mazda MX-6 and Mazda Miata, I can clearly see that straight line speed does very little to improve track times. It’s the area under the curve that matters (he..he...he…). What I mean by this is that a heavier car with lots of horsepower will achieve faster straighline speed , but will have to slow down more than the lighter cars to enter the twiesties. The area under the MHP vs Distance curve generated by Traqmate is a great way to compare the performance of two different cars.
As an example, at Thunderhill raceway, my friend’s MX-6 can only reach a top speed of 110 mph on the front straight, as compared to 130+ for my 951, however he can generally enter most turns 6 to 10 mph faster than I can. His lap times are much better than mine. When we compare his Traqmate MPH vs. Distance data overlaid onto mine, it is obvious to see that I am loosing most at turn entry and mid-corner, even my track out speeds are lower, but with my turbo I can quickly bring up my speed again and start catching him until we reach another corner, then he pulls away again, this continues turn after turn. So at the racetrack with lots of twisties. Light weight cars rule.
So in terms of improving track performance, here is my 2 cents:
1. learn the track really really well, analyze it to see which corners are most important to lap times (e.g. corners leading into long straights)
2. weight reduction, weight reduction (better than adding HP)
3. big sticky tires e.g Hankook Z-214’s C-51 compound,
4. LSD transmission
Last edited by Trucho-951; 03-30-2009 at 07:09 PM.
03-30-2009, 07:18 PM
#10
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Thread Starter
Thanks for all the input guys.
Ok to clarify a little more. As we realise the line in the sand is when / if you decide to cage your car. As John rightfully points out, safety should be paramount. It's easy to convince ourselves when we start out doing club events like DEs or Autocross, that you don't need or want a cage but as we modify our cars more and more and our speeds build we soon exceed the point of where this is ok to not ok. I am sure I have passed this point as the car is pretty quick. The more I think of it, the more I believe I need to take stock and re evaluate the whole situation.
I can still build up a track specific car and keep it road registered. Probably do as George suggests and put in the removable door bars just for daily driving. As a side note, how much different are bolt in cages to full welded in versions? I know the cost differences can be great. So far in my brief research I've found that a full custom cage can cost $8k plus over here.
We have very little access to driver coaching out here. You can get a pro to ride with you for 2-3 laps on some mid week trackdays which I've done at Eastern Creek and I feel confidant that my lines are pretty good but I'm sure there's always improvements to be had. They usually seem pretty disinterested to ride in some old car that they probably don't even know what it is. I've found the in car video to be a major help in post drive analysis.
I was riding on R888s and that was the level of tyre of the other competitors in this event. Even some Evos on street tyres were quicker than me. They were definitely the car to beat on the day as they filled most of the top places in all 3 classes. My brakes are Big Reds up front, drilled 965 rotors, s/s braideds, SRF fluid, PFC pads (which were surprisingly a bit disappointing compared to other times I've used them?), KW competition suspension, Tarett adj sways front and rear, motorsport LSD....I mean this car is not stock. I think the weight presents a major disability but I don't want to strip the car unless I'm going to cage it so..........it's back to the trackcar project I guess. Money will be a hurdle and the desire to put the new engine into the Grey car will also be a major temptation. George I know what you describe about your car and it being fine for the road and I agree I could live with the 3L for the road, but on the track it will be much faster than the current motor and I was running out of room and traction on Sunday so I don't think this is a realistic option.
I will have to do a serious regroup and plan what is to be done next.
Again thanks for the input and keep any ideas coming.
Ok to clarify a little more. As we realise the line in the sand is when / if you decide to cage your car. As John rightfully points out, safety should be paramount. It's easy to convince ourselves when we start out doing club events like DEs or Autocross, that you don't need or want a cage but as we modify our cars more and more and our speeds build we soon exceed the point of where this is ok to not ok. I am sure I have passed this point as the car is pretty quick. The more I think of it, the more I believe I need to take stock and re evaluate the whole situation.
I can still build up a track specific car and keep it road registered. Probably do as George suggests and put in the removable door bars just for daily driving. As a side note, how much different are bolt in cages to full welded in versions? I know the cost differences can be great. So far in my brief research I've found that a full custom cage can cost $8k plus over here.
We have very little access to driver coaching out here. You can get a pro to ride with you for 2-3 laps on some mid week trackdays which I've done at Eastern Creek and I feel confidant that my lines are pretty good but I'm sure there's always improvements to be had. They usually seem pretty disinterested to ride in some old car that they probably don't even know what it is. I've found the in car video to be a major help in post drive analysis.
I was riding on R888s and that was the level of tyre of the other competitors in this event. Even some Evos on street tyres were quicker than me. They were definitely the car to beat on the day as they filled most of the top places in all 3 classes. My brakes are Big Reds up front, drilled 965 rotors, s/s braideds, SRF fluid, PFC pads (which were surprisingly a bit disappointing compared to other times I've used them?), KW competition suspension, Tarett adj sways front and rear, motorsport LSD....I mean this car is not stock. I think the weight presents a major disability but I don't want to strip the car unless I'm going to cage it so..........it's back to the trackcar project I guess. Money will be a hurdle and the desire to put the new engine into the Grey car will also be a major temptation. George I know what you describe about your car and it being fine for the road and I agree I could live with the 3L for the road, but on the track it will be much faster than the current motor and I was running out of room and traction on Sunday so I don't think this is a realistic option.
I will have to do a serious regroup and plan what is to be done next.
Again thanks for the input and keep any ideas coming.
03-30-2009, 07:27 PM
#11
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Patrick,
John is bang on. Although I am new to the 951, I have been racing competitively for 15 years with a few championships and lap records under my belt. I raced a tube framed Honda for a while that ate many high horse powered cars (Porsches) that should have been faster. I'm not the greatest driver in the world, but I'm better than some. My point is that it takes many hours in a race car to be good and get the most out of it. And the difference is not insignificant.
Last weekend was a DE at the local track with lots of Porsches out. It was the first time I had the 951 on the track to test. it was no where near dialed in and I was disappointed in the performance as I knew it could be much faster once I set it up. After the third session there was a group around my car in the paddock looking all over it. One fellow in particular was very interested in knowing about the car. He said he was doing everything he could to catch up with me but couldn't do it. When I asked him what he was driving, he pointed to the Carrera GT. I am not kidding, true story. Clearly this was a driver issue and not the car.
Take a donor car where mileage and poor accessories make it low in value and turn it into a full track car. Anything else is a compromise and inconvenience. There are many things you can't do to a street car.
Cheers and good luck
John is bang on. Although I am new to the 951, I have been racing competitively for 15 years with a few championships and lap records under my belt. I raced a tube framed Honda for a while that ate many high horse powered cars (Porsches) that should have been faster. I'm not the greatest driver in the world, but I'm better than some. My point is that it takes many hours in a race car to be good and get the most out of it. And the difference is not insignificant.
Last weekend was a DE at the local track with lots of Porsches out. It was the first time I had the 951 on the track to test. it was no where near dialed in and I was disappointed in the performance as I knew it could be much faster once I set it up. After the third session there was a group around my car in the paddock looking all over it. One fellow in particular was very interested in knowing about the car. He said he was doing everything he could to catch up with me but couldn't do it. When I asked him what he was driving, he pointed to the Carrera GT. I am not kidding, true story. Clearly this was a driver issue and not the car.
Take a donor car where mileage and poor accessories make it low in value and turn it into a full track car. Anything else is a compromise and inconvenience. There are many things you can't do to a street car.
Cheers and good luck
03-30-2009, 07:31 PM
#12
Burning Brakes
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Not sure if you've considered this option yet or if anyone suggested it up top because that was a lot of reading, but, what if you were to fully track out your gray car and fix the black one up into a nice street car (i.e. where you gray car was several months ago haha)? The gray car is already well on its way to being more of a track car than a street car from everything I've seen and read from you in the past several months Pat. If it were me, I think I'd seriously consider that option as the long run costs of tracking out the gray car and streeting the black car + a new paint job on it I think would be lower than swapping everything around between cars and tracking the black one or stopping where you are with the gray one and starting from scratch on the black one. Truly, from what I gather that you're trying to get out of your car, I think you're stuck with having either the gray one or the black one dedicated to the track. But that's just my .02 on the topic looking at it from an economic standpoint since money is obviously a concern.
03-30-2009, 08:30 PM
#13
Rennlist Member
Lot of good advice here, I'd suggest that you get pro to drive your car, you will get useful feedback on the car and perspective on driving it.
Lot of those cars behind you had a lot more power.
Lot of those cars behind you had a lot more power.
03-30-2009, 08:49 PM
#15
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Thread Starter
Actually Deano I think the reverse is the way to go. Swapping over the parts to the Black car won't be too hard as it's without the motor (that's in the grey car now). The paint on this is also pretty crappy. I'm not sure what is involved in acid dipping, seam welding etc plus I'd like to remove the sunroof.
Lorenzo, sure I agree with you and John. I can always get better but the rate of improvement is slowing as you get closer to you and your car's potential. Serious data logging is the next step. Some of the cars at the track on Sunday had full pit crews of 8 people doing repairs, tweaking, and diagnostics mid sessions. So we were certainly at the 'amateur' end of the scale.
Lorenzo, sure I agree with you and John. I can always get better but the rate of improvement is slowing as you get closer to you and your car's potential. Serious data logging is the next step. Some of the cars at the track on Sunday had full pit crews of 8 people doing repairs, tweaking, and diagnostics mid sessions. So we were certainly at the 'amateur' end of the scale.