Thanks.
I was actually browsing through older posts while you were typing your reply and found the answer to my question - I now understand the issue (who said "better late than never!" ).
I was not aware the Bosch sensor would easily meet its limitations on cars such as ours.

 

There was a pretty lengthy discussion regarding the limitations of that sensor in the thread listed below.

https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...eferrerid=7359

 

John, lets just say we agree to disagree. You have you way of doing things, we have ours. Many of them are similar or even the same. Like a dry sump kit, there are many ways to do one, and can all be right. Our kits have evolved over time as yours with Russels chips and now this new Meter. The new multi board chip is about to be relased offering exteral switchable maps should the customer want that as well.

 

GREAT THREAD!

 

Yes, this was the thread I read back again.
Back then the flow factor went over my head.

 

Mike, I agree there are many ways. However, there is only one correct way!!

I still would like to hear you elaborate on your previous statement regarding the MAF selection.

I also agree with you, we may use the same brand of MAF (same manufacturer), however that's where the similarity end. Please don't compare our software to any other software. As I posted already, a friendly contest will answer many questions and will clear up many foggy issues.

As far as the multi switch to select a image.. I believe Vitesse came up with this setup on the chip/board years ago.. But glad to see others adding similar features.

I don't want this to become a pissing contest or a hostile discussion. I would like to see it continue as a technical discussion. If you say you have a true MAF chip, I politely ask you to answer the questions I posted above. I'm sure other listers would benefit from the findings.

If you prefer not to continue this discussion, I will understand and will respect your decision.

 

I would be very interested in hearing Lindsey's response to these questions regarding their specific "MAF" chips. How consistant and/or accurate are the performance of these MAF chips when installed in different cars?

 

Man, what did i start here!

 

Nothing, just a friendly debate

 

This is great info.

 

Originally Posted by fast951
Not all MAF softwares are the same. It's very easy to tell what you are buying, ask the following questions and request a proof to see it in action:

- Genuine MAF software - MAF transfer function used on the chip? No signal massager is needed.

We have MAF chips with transfer function adjustments. If you want details, you need to talk to our chip guy. I'm not sure if he is following this or not or cares to get involved.

- Can you change "just" the MAF sensor with a different sensor with a different calibration, change the transfer function and maintain the correct AFR and Ignition?

Our chips are set up for a particular meter calibration. That's based on what the customer tells us he is wanting to do. What your referring to here is your ability to make settings changes to accomodate the changed sensor. If somebody was to change the sensor, it would simply require a new chip if your wanting something more optimal. Our multi chip board will give you that option if that's what someone wants. Not sure anybody is changing MAF sensors out there once they buy one unless making major changes.

Your comparing a single image chip to a chip with adjustments ( a lot more expensive, and adjustment most will never use ) which you really can't compare.

- Can you change injectors size and keep the correct AFR?

Sure, change the chip, or soon select a new file, just like you do. You cannot do it without a change in settings so I don't see the point in the question.

- Can you vary boost (7psi to 24psi) and keep the correct AFR? (without any other change).

With no setting changes?

- Would the engine maintain the correct AFR with exterior temp changes?

A question for Russell, but we drive cars when it's 100, and when it's 30, and are not making any changes. If you do, then you have other issues we have come to learn.

- Can you change injectors size bigger or smaller without changing the MAF to use a different MAF calibration?

I read this question about 5 times and are not sure what your asking or why.

And btw, we sold MAFs, turbo, heads, cams and injectors before you did, but glad to see others adding similar products.

 

We like a MAF meter that hits a particular voltage at max air flow. This new 4 wire meter can do that no matter whether your making 50 or 700 RWHP with a simple file modification or change. To much voltage, and your out of control tune wise, not enough, and your car will react lazy.

 

Well you usually don't adjust the transfer function, you use a totally different one to match the MAF in use. At least that's how the Bosch engineers designed the system. What you are referring is a incomplete solution.

Since we agree that once a MAF calibration changes a different transfer function must be used. A genuine MAF conversion will require "JUST" the transfer function to be modified and everything else remains the same. The end result is the same AFR and the same ignition as the original MAF.
Changing many variables on the chip to get a certain AFR under predetermined conditions is not a genuine MAF conversion.
A simple test will clarify all of this: swap MAF & injector size. What happens to the AFRs? Making something work under strict conditions works fine till you change the parameters..

As they say cost plays a big role, I agree with you. However, as a engineer, I look for the optimal solution. One that works under a variety of conditions. The solution may be more than some are willing to pay for, some others appreciate it and are willing to pay a bit extra for something that they will be happier with.


Many people (I'm not directing this at you), change the MAF calibration to skew the signal to compensate for the Injectors size. This started with the Ford guys years ago. Many paid the price by having issues due to the incorrect ignition being selected at the ECU is using the transfer function of a totally different MAF.


Yes with no other changes. Can you run 7psi boost, then turn up the boost to let's say 20psi and maintain the same AFR? (of course, the use of the correct fuel octane is a must and having a healthy engine).
Since we are talking about MAF conversion, I will not even ask if you can alter ignition based on boost. I know we can!

No no issue here.

I believe I answered this above.

Great, I believe many before us and many after us will be doing the same. Neither one of us invented the MAF, the turbo or the cams. So again, we agree on a few things. I'm sure we can agree that some products perform better than others.

 

I just appreciate you two discussing this and continuing to develop the MAF solution for our cars. I know it has come a long way since the ARC2's of old.

Props to both of you for having a candid technical discussion in public.

Great thread.

 

Mike Why do you like a MAF meter to hit a particular voltage at max air flow? is there a technical reason or just a preference?

In a earlier message you stated that once you change a MAF calibration, you need to change a chip. Which is reasonable. You also stated that more than likely customers will not change a MAF so there is no need for the extra chips.
So, why are you now recommending they purchase a MAF that generates various calibrations? Why not use a MAF that can handle 700rwhp from the beginning and not worry about changing the transfer function nor the chip? I would think it'll be easier and "cheaper" for the customer to use a simple MAF that supprts all of his HP or potential HP needs.

The MAF you refer to, translates its generic calibration to look like a variety of calibrations. This is simply a MAF with a signal converter. The Load IO (maftuner) as well as other products did this already. Actually it's funny, prior to the 4-wire MAF hitting the market, we built a prototype controller (for a MAF manufacturer) that converted a MAF signal to appear like a different MAF.. Please don't misunderstand me! I'm not taking or trying to take anything away from the 4-wire MAF sensor. To me a MAF is a MAF, it has a calibration. The point of this whole discussion is related to the 951 and who offers a genuine MAF software.. I wanted to stay away from this thread!!!

A still think a good way to answer all of the questions and to clarify many issues is to have a test done. Vary the MAF (based on the calibration), vary the boost, vary the injectors size. The results will be logged and it'll be easy to determine the best software from the results.