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Rear wing options???

 
Old 02-25-2009, 04:54 AM
  #61  
TonyG
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Originally Posted by Duke View Post
If we assume that the wing is mounted to the frame rails, what do you base your comment that no other wing will produce the same level of downforce?
My comments are based on the wings that are commercially available for purchase, that are designed to fit and work on a 944.

And yes it's true.


IMHO a more rear mounted wing would produce a higher level of downforce, also there are other wing designs that are more effective than the straight wing plane.
Sure.... I wish we could do just that....

But there are limits on where you can place a wing with respect to the front of the car, the rear of the car, and the height of the car, depending on the organization you're racing with. In most cases, you're not going to be able to move the wing base the outer plane of the car or the vertical plane of the car.
....

First off, the 2nd car is a Kokeln wing with funky side plates.

The Viper has it's own wing and the blue 944 has a wing connected the rear body (not structurally sound).

I have no idea how effective those wings are since I'm not familiar with those wings.


I would think these 2 designs produce more downforce than the regular Kokeln wing, and even more so if combined with a "banan style" wing, like the Oreca Viper.

Based on what? Visual observation?



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Old 02-25-2009, 06:48 AM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by TonyG View Post
But there are limits on where you can place a wing with respect to the front of the car, the rear of the car, and the height of the car, depending on the organization you're racing with. In most cases, you're not going to be able to move the wing base the outer plane of the car or the vertical plane of the car.
True but I thought we were talking about maximum downforce, not maximum downforce within rule regulations that we haven't even talked about or specified.

Originally Posted by TonyG View Post
First off, the 2nd car is a Kokeln wing with funky side plates.
Yes but as far as I can see it is mounted more rearward and a tad higher up than the regular kokeln wing.

Originally Posted by TonyG View Post
The Viper has it's own wing and the blue 944 has a wing connected the rear body (not structurally sound).
For all we know that car might as well have internal bracing that connects the wing mounting to the frame. And if we assume that I my personal belief is that it would be more effective than the Kokeln wing due to the fact that it sits higher and more rearward.


Originally Posted by TonyG View Post
Based on what? Visual observation?
I haven't tested all the wings shown here in a wind tunnel or back to back on a track so yes, it's all educated guesses and personal beliefs.
What do you base your statement on that there is no wing that creates more downforce than your Kokeln?
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Old 02-25-2009, 07:24 AM
  #63  
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Functional or not, those big *** wings on a 944/968 are the ugliest things you could ever put on our cars.
Ever do a big girl? They put the fun in functional. You just wouldn't want to go out in public with one. Same thing with one of those wings on our cars. Don't do it.

Wait,,,not that I know or anything....
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Old 02-25-2009, 08:51 AM
  #64  
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In the words of the late, great Frank Zappa..."The bigger the cushion, the better the pushin"
Joe, I don't want this for my day to day appearance. This is strictly for my trackdays. That's why I want something that is removable before and after the meets.
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Old 02-25-2009, 09:24 AM
  #65  
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I'm wondering how well a combination of a rear diffuser and a LeMans rear spoiler (GT racing #255) would work? The issue I see are that you cannot tune the above for different tracks like you can a wing.

The Frankencar was experiencing front end lift at high speeds (e.g. back straight at Road Atlanta) so I installed a GT racing front spoiler (242) that is 1.5" lower and have added a 4" splitter. I will be doing a test and tune next week, but am somewhat concerned that the front may now be better planted on high-speed turns than the rear.
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Old 02-25-2009, 11:11 AM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by TonyG View Post
OK. Then we'd have a wing several feet behind the car, much wider than the car, and up much higher than the roof of the car.



it's the same wing. The supports are a little different moving the wing past the rear edge of the car. Easy to do, but not legal in sanctioned events (that I'm aware of).




Sure. It might. But I would bet money it doesn't. People do that assuming that the body is strong enough to support it. It's a fairly common mistake.



Wing placement is one thing. The aerodynamics of the wing element itself is another. I'm talking about the later.


It's not "my Kokeln". It's "the Kokeln". And lots of people that race 944s around the world have "the Kokeln".

Here's a test. Go figure out what the wing element is actually modeled (copied) after. Then you'll know why it works so well.


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aaaaaaa
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Old 02-25-2009, 11:15 AM
  #67  
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double post
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Old 02-25-2009, 11:46 AM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by DFASTEST951 View Post
Functional or not, those big *** wings on a 944/968 are the ugliest things you could ever put on our cars.
Ever do a big girl? They put the fun in functional. You just wouldn't want to go out in public with one. Same thing with one of those wings on our cars. Don't do it.

Wait,,,not that I know or anything....
Yeah... but they sure do work.

Here's a Vegas analogy:

It's kinda like having a rack. You think that you're never going to get one, but you show up to work at the club, and everyone's got one. That makes real hard to compete. Eventually you see the success ($$$) the other girls are having. And you realize that in order to compete, you too need a big rack. So you go buy a big double d rack. In time, that rack becomes a normal part of you, and you don't think about it anymore. It just is...

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Old 02-25-2009, 06:16 PM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by TonyG View Post
OK. Then we'd have a wing several feet behind the car, much wider than the car, and up much higher than the roof of the car.

it's the same wing. The supports are a little different moving the wing past the rear edge of the car. Easy to do, but not legal in sanctioned events (that I'm aware of).

Sure. It might. But I would bet money it doesn't. People do that assuming that the body is strong enough to support it. It's a fairly common mistake.

Wing placement is one thing. The aerodynamics of the wing element itself is another. I'm talking about the later.

It's not "my Kokeln". It's "the Kokeln". And lots of people that race 944s around the world have "the Kokeln".

Here's a test. Go figure out what the wing element is actually modeled (copied) after. Then you'll know why it works so well.

TonyG
I'm sure the Kokeln wing is one of the best solutions out there, but your first statement is just ridicoulus because it makes you look that you don't care about placement at all. Perhaps I was wrong, but from the pictures of the Kokeln wing it doesn't seem to sit at the very rear edge of the car. I just saying a more rearward mounted wing is likely to more effective than a more forward mounted wing.

I haven't seen the Kokeln in person so I cannot say what element it's modeled after. Looking at pictures it looks like a 996 CUP wing. Which is interesting considering Porsche has changed the wing element design on the 997 RSR...
As I said, the Kokeln seems great, but I don't know why you are so sure it's the best possible design and cannot be enhanced in any way or format.

Great as it is, when talking about street legal track cars making holes in the rear screen isn't really an option. So for those of us who wants downforce without that kind of mounting we need to think of other alternatives.
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Old 02-25-2009, 07:07 PM
  #70  
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has anyone got any links on where to buy these wings
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Old 02-25-2009, 07:45 PM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by Duke View Post
I'm sure the Kokeln wing is one of the best solutions out there, but your first statement is just ridicoulus because it makes you look that you don't care about placement at all.
That's silly. Of course wing placement is important. But hanging it of the rear of the car and supporting it between the tail lights, no matter the placement, is not the right way to do it. Nor is supporting it off the hatch frame. There's a right way and a wrong way to do things.

Perhaps I was wrong, but from the pictures of the Kokeln wing it doesn't seem to sit at the very rear edge of the car. I just saying a more rearward mounted wing is likely to more effective than a more forward mounted wing.
You're talking about Orca? That wing is clearly behind the car, and it is supported properly. And as far as it being better further away (and higher)... that's obvious. And I was never arguing otherwise.

As I said, the Kokeln seems great, but I don't know why you are so sure it's the best possible design and cannot be enhanced in any way or format.
You're reading way too much into it. The deal is, for the 944, you're not going to find a better wing. From the way it mounts, to the hardware, to the wing element, ready to go. And it flat out works.


I didn't make the wing and had no hand in designing it. I could care less if anybody bought one. In fact... it would actually be better for me if nobody had one (except me)

Great as it is, when talking about street legal track cars making holes in the rear screen isn't really an option. So for those of us who wants downforce without that kind of mounting we need to think of other alternatives.
Then what you want is something less than a great wing because you're not going to get wing, that can produce substantial downforce, to mount up anywhere to the car. The hatch won't work (probably not for long), the the sheet metal between the tail lights get tweaked dealing with the loads. You can mount it under the hatch, but again you're transferring the load to the top of the rear quarter panels. Again... not good. The only place to properly transfer the load is through the glass to the frame rails.

The solution then would be something along the lines of a 968TRS wing with gurney flap and leave it at that.


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Old 02-25-2009, 08:08 PM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by TonyG View Post
That's silly. Of course wing placement is important. But hanging it of the rear of the car and supporting it between the tail lights, no matter the placement, is not the right way to do it. Nor is supporting it off the hatch frame. There's a right way and a wrong way to do things.



You're talking about Orca? That wing is clearly behind the car, and it is supported properly. And as far as it being better further away (and higher)... that's obvious. And I was never arguing otherwise.



You're reading way too much into it. The deal is, for the 944, you're not going to find a better wing. From the way it mounts, to the hardware, to the wing element, ready to go. And it flat out works.


I didn't make the wing and had no hand in designing it. I could care less if anybody bought one. In fact... it would actually be better for me if nobody had one (except me)



Then what you want is something less than a great wing because you're not going to get wing, that can produce substantial downforce, to mount up anywhere to the car. The hatch won't work (probably not for long), the the sheet metal between the tail lights get tweaked dealing with the loads. You can mount it under the hatch, but again you're transferring the load to the top of the rear quarter panels. Again... not good. The only place to properly transfer the load is through the glass to the frame rails.

The solution then would be something along the lines of a 968TRS wing with gurney flap and leave it at that.


TonyG
Well, where do you think the rear 1/4's attach to? It IS a unibody. As long as you find a way to mount them to the rear body panel and stop flexing as you mentioned that would seem fine. If there is no flexing all that load is going to go directly to the rest of the chassis, right?
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Old 02-25-2009, 08:27 PM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by Lorax View Post
Well, where do you think the rear 1/4's attach to?
And how much do the 1/4 panels weigh?

It IS a unibody. As long as you find a way to mount them to the rear body panel and stop flexing as you mentioned that would seem fine. If there is no flexing all that load is going to go directly to the rest of the chassis, right?
The fact that the car is a unibody makes no difference. You can't simply transfer big loads to any place on a car just because it's a unibody. The metal will flex, fatigue, and bend.




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Old 02-25-2009, 08:31 PM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by TonyG View Post
And how much do the 1/4 panels weigh?



The fact that the car is a unibody makes no difference. You can't simply transfer big loads to any place on a car just because it's a unibody. The metal will flex, fatigue, and bend.




TonyG
Unless you reinforce said panel.

If you don't want to put holes in the hatch you could go to the rear body panel and properly reinforce it. I do agree that mounting to any outer panel means you need to reinforce it.

If you get rid of the flex, there is no problem.
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Old 02-25-2009, 08:46 PM
  #75  
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Wow, I miss alot being gone for a short time.

Patrick, I'm so glad you only want this thing for a track car. Your car looks so nice as it is, it would completely ruin the look on the street.

Tony, great analogy. Get this though. It's the Damndest thing. Since everyone has a rack, and each girl pushed it to the next level of size, it got to be outrageous. It was like touching overinflated balloons. Now, the girls with their "stock" or "factory" racks are getting more attention because the over inflated racks went too far and you just couldn't get over the Michael Jackson fakeness. On another note, and you guys aren't going to believe this but since I'm in the industry, I'll share. The beaver bush is coming back in style. I'm not saying a rain forest mess but the growth is actually coming back in. I guess we all like a little change now and again and now it's going back to a more, "factory" look.

Ok, back to your regular scheduled programming.
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