need some advice (lots of wierd questions regarding strengthening block)
01-22-2009, 02:28 AM
#1
Burning Brakes
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need some advice (lots of wierd questions regarding strengthening block)
So here is the list of parts in my 3.0L engine:
944s2 3.0L block
3.0L crank (cross drilled, balanced)
Pauter rods
JE pistons (ceramic coated)
LR solid lifter conversion
2.7L head
LR "racing" valve springs
titanium valve spring retainers
Web cam:
....valve lift: .495 .495
....duration 264 264
....duration@.050 246 246
....lobe center 112 112
LR level V head (O-ringed also)
LR balance shaft delete
Raceware head studs
Sooooo, the internals are pretty stout and can handle good power. But after reading and researching it seems as though not a lot of people have faith in the block itself. I realize there is somewhat of a war going on in another thread about this right now. Lets try to keep that war out of here. Be optimistic, pretend someone has a gun to your head and is demanding that you build a reliable 600hp 944 engine or you are done. My questions are about what can be done to strengthen the block itself. It has siamesed cylinders already so that's a good thing, but what else can be done to make this block as stout and sturdy as possible. I found some info on using a epoxy on the underside of the cylinders. What kind of epoxy is it and how sure can I be that it wont weaken and break off over time? Next question is about deck plates, I really don't like the look of the infamous "peg" lol, but what are the options as far a strengthening the top side of the cylinders. I know CEP and LR make deck plates, anyone else? Im confident my machinist can do it as I've seen other deck plates that he has made for various engines, all seem to run fine with no problems.
Please don't reply with "get an ls1", "it simply can't be done", "why would you want 600hp?", or anything like that. If it was you with a 600hp goal in mind what precautions would YOU take to make sure your block is as strong as possible?
944s2 3.0L block
3.0L crank (cross drilled, balanced)
Pauter rods
JE pistons (ceramic coated)
LR solid lifter conversion
2.7L head
LR "racing" valve springs
titanium valve spring retainers
Web cam:
....valve lift: .495 .495
....duration 264 264
....duration@.050 246 246
....lobe center 112 112
LR level V head (O-ringed also)
LR balance shaft delete
Raceware head studs
Sooooo, the internals are pretty stout and can handle good power. But after reading and researching it seems as though not a lot of people have faith in the block itself. I realize there is somewhat of a war going on in another thread about this right now. Lets try to keep that war out of here. Be optimistic, pretend someone has a gun to your head and is demanding that you build a reliable 600hp 944 engine or you are done. My questions are about what can be done to strengthen the block itself. It has siamesed cylinders already so that's a good thing, but what else can be done to make this block as stout and sturdy as possible. I found some info on using a epoxy on the underside of the cylinders. What kind of epoxy is it and how sure can I be that it wont weaken and break off over time? Next question is about deck plates, I really don't like the look of the infamous "peg" lol, but what are the options as far a strengthening the top side of the cylinders. I know CEP and LR make deck plates, anyone else? Im confident my machinist can do it as I've seen other deck plates that he has made for various engines, all seem to run fine with no problems.
Please don't reply with "get an ls1", "it simply can't be done", "why would you want 600hp?", or anything like that. If it was you with a 600hp goal in mind what precautions would YOU take to make sure your block is as strong as possible?
01-22-2009, 11:54 AM
#3
Nordschleife Master
Why do you need 600hp!? 
No seriously, you've mentioned most of the known different procedures to strengthen the block. Here's a short list of more or less known ways to do it, they address some different problems though:
* Grout cylinder coolant passage
* Grout crank case
* Deck plate
* Siamese cylinders with block outer walls using pin's
* Pin girdle
The 3 liter block is much better to start with since the cylinders are siamesed inbetween and the cylinders doesn't stick up as much as the 2.5l blocks. The cylinder coolant passage is much more shallow. So to grout the cylinder coolant passage is only something I would do on a 2.5l block.
We all have differnt definitions of "reliable" though.
Even if you keep the combustion chamber sealed, and the girdle in place so bearing clearances doesn't change, and the oil cooled, and the EGT down, and no detonation - IMHO there's still a long term risk that the block itself can crack. Just as witnessed by the DOOM team.
No seriously, you've mentioned most of the known different procedures to strengthen the block. Here's a short list of more or less known ways to do it, they address some different problems though:
* Grout cylinder coolant passage
* Grout crank case
* Deck plate
* Siamese cylinders with block outer walls using pin's
* Pin girdle
The 3 liter block is much better to start with since the cylinders are siamesed inbetween and the cylinders doesn't stick up as much as the 2.5l blocks. The cylinder coolant passage is much more shallow. So to grout the cylinder coolant passage is only something I would do on a 2.5l block.
We all have differnt definitions of "reliable" though.
Even if you keep the combustion chamber sealed, and the girdle in place so bearing clearances doesn't change, and the oil cooled, and the EGT down, and no detonation - IMHO there's still a long term risk that the block itself can crack. Just as witnessed by the DOOM team.
01-22-2009, 01:39 PM
#5
Burning Brakes
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thank you for your response. I realize that i won't be getting 100K miles out of this motor at 550-600hp. The other day at our shop, a guy named jesse achieved something almost unheard of, He made 605whp with 403 ft lbs of torque out of his civic with the d16 SOHC engine. I mean the motor was built but not sleeved, but still 605 out of a SOHC! You can probably guess what I was thinking after seeing it. How is a honda 1.6L SOHC capable of 605whp and our 3.0L SOHC with HUGE valves not? I'm really curious to know why. Our blocks have to be stronger than the honda block, our heads have to flow better, we for damn sure have more displacement, so what gives?
01-22-2009, 01:42 PM
#6
Race Car
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thank you for your response. I realize that i won't be getting 100K miles out of this motor at 550-600hp. The other day at our shop, a guy named jesse achieved something almost unheard of, He made 605whp with 403 ft lbs of torque out of his civic with the d16 SOHC engine. I mean the motor was built but not sleeved, but still 605 out of a SOHC! You can probably guess what I was thinking after seeing it. How is a honda 1.6L SOHC capable of 605whp and our 3.0L SOHC with HUGE valves not? I'm really curious to know why. Our blocks have to be stronger than the honda block, our heads have to flow better, we for damn sure have more displacement, so what gives?
that motor is most likely putting out close to 180-200 @ the wheels WITHOUT boost.
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01-22-2009, 01:48 PM
#8
Burning Brakes
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Block:
Crower rods(the best)
CP pistons 8.5 to 1 comp.
acl bearings
stock crank micro polished
Head:
D16z6 head
crower cam stage 3(tha ****)
crower springs and retainers
ferrera valves
head is port and polished on the exhaust side
Intake side is square ported and polished
skunk2 pro series manifold
skunk2 pro series tb
Turbo:
neukin ram horn manifold
gt3040r
precision 650 intercooler
tial bov
tial 40vb wg
custom intercooler piping done by me
Trans:
gearspeed sohc tranny w/carbon coated sycros
quaife lsd
clutch masters twin disc setup
dss axles
Fuel:
walbro intank fuel pump
precision 1000cc injectors
aeromotive fpr
aem fuel rail
All this running on stock honda ignition and Hondata s300
Crower rods(the best)
CP pistons 8.5 to 1 comp.
acl bearings
stock crank micro polished
Head:
D16z6 head
crower cam stage 3(tha ****)
crower springs and retainers
ferrera valves
head is port and polished on the exhaust side
Intake side is square ported and polished
skunk2 pro series manifold
skunk2 pro series tb
Turbo:
neukin ram horn manifold
gt3040r
precision 650 intercooler
tial bov
tial 40vb wg
custom intercooler piping done by me
Trans:
gearspeed sohc tranny w/carbon coated sycros
quaife lsd
clutch masters twin disc setup
dss axles
Fuel:
walbro intank fuel pump
precision 1000cc injectors
aeromotive fpr
aem fuel rail
All this running on stock honda ignition and Hondata s300
01-22-2009, 02:05 PM
#9
Race Car
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If those are the facts. It didn't actually make 600 to the wheels unless it ran nitrous. Motor can handle it, Turbo just can't blow that hard.
The Turbo description is an old 'SLang" for that fact that its a GT30 Turbine wheel with the GT40 style compressor, but gives little to its actual Specs. What size wheel 76? Turbine -t-3 or t-4. What A/R.. I have seen some of the GT30's pushed to at or near 600whp, but they were very specialized ones. - retarded lag.
Correction factor?
Who ported the head? Endyne is one of the best.
PS. Hondata is the best bang for the buck EVER. - ok maybe the folowers like NepTune, but clearly fantastic.
The Turbo description is an old 'SLang" for that fact that its a GT30 Turbine wheel with the GT40 style compressor, but gives little to its actual Specs. What size wheel 76? Turbine -t-3 or t-4. What A/R.. I have seen some of the GT30's pushed to at or near 600whp, but they were very specialized ones. - retarded lag.
Correction factor?
Who ported the head? Endyne is one of the best.
PS. Hondata is the best bang for the buck EVER. - ok maybe the folowers like NepTune, but clearly fantastic.
01-22-2009, 02:09 PM
#10
Three Wheelin'
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GT35R 0.82 to keep backpressure low as well, and make sure you have a proper tuned stand alone... GT40R might work s well, but feelings its gonna be a weeee bit big.. try it!
01-22-2009, 05:11 PM
#11
Nordschleife Master
99.9% of the 944 owners want's some sort of reliability in combination of drivability, not the maximum possible straight line acceleration in a narrow rpm range. Plus the fact that there's not that many used 944 engines around, and they're not cheap enough to sacrifice engine after engine.
01-22-2009, 06:51 PM
#12
Burning Brakes
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If those are the facts. It didn't actually make 600 to the wheels unless it ran nitrous. Motor can handle it, Turbo just can't blow that hard.
The Turbo description is an old 'SLang" for that fact that its a GT30 Turbine wheel with the GT40 style compressor, but gives little to its actual Specs. What size wheel 76? Turbine -t-3 or t-4. What A/R.. I have seen some of the GT30's pushed to at or near 600whp, but they were very specialized ones. - retarded lag.
Correction factor?
Who ported the head? Endyne is one of the best.
PS. Hondata is the best bang for the buck EVER. - ok maybe the folowers like NepTune, but clearly fantastic.
The Turbo description is an old 'SLang" for that fact that its a GT30 Turbine wheel with the GT40 style compressor, but gives little to its actual Specs. What size wheel 76? Turbine -t-3 or t-4. What A/R.. I have seen some of the GT30's pushed to at or near 600whp, but they were very specialized ones. - retarded lag.
Correction factor?
Who ported the head? Endyne is one of the best.
PS. Hondata is the best bang for the buck EVER. - ok maybe the folowers like NepTune, but clearly fantastic.
Wheel: 60mm w/ 84 trim
Housing: .63 ar
Compressor
Wheel: 82mm w/ 56 trim
Housing: .70 ar
01-22-2009, 06:54 PM
#13
Burning Brakes
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01-22-2009, 07:11 PM
#14
2nd Gear
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If those are the facts. It didn't actually make 600 to the wheels unless it ran nitrous. Motor can handle it, Turbo just can't blow that hard.
The Turbo description is an old 'SLang" for that fact that its a GT30 Turbine wheel with the GT40 style compressor, but gives little to its actual Specs. What size wheel 76? Turbine -t-3 or t-4. What A/R.. I have seen some of the GT30's pushed to at or near 600whp, but they were very specialized ones. - retarded lag.
Correction factor?
Who ported the head? Endyne is one of the best.
PS. Hondata is the best bang for the buck EVER. - ok maybe the folowers like NepTune, but clearly fantastic.
The Turbo description is an old 'SLang" for that fact that its a GT30 Turbine wheel with the GT40 style compressor, but gives little to its actual Specs. What size wheel 76? Turbine -t-3 or t-4. What A/R.. I have seen some of the GT30's pushed to at or near 600whp, but they were very specialized ones. - retarded lag.
Correction factor?
Who ported the head? Endyne is one of the best.
PS. Hondata is the best bang for the buck EVER. - ok maybe the folowers like NepTune, but clearly fantastic.
correction factor was 1.06 on that pass... so about 575whp give or take with no correction. still a ton of horsepower for a SOHC civic with such a small turbo.
Jon