333pg333

True p to w is the best.

Chris White

Part of my issue with the new system is that it seems to have been enacted to equalize the engines. What about the rest of the rules? The 911 crowd enjoys a lot of advantages due to the availability of racing parts, lots more development and many choices. Weight will always be in favor of the 911.
Sure, the power to weigh ratio will equalize the engines (if done right) but 911 based chassis usually run 500 lbs less for the same level of development. If the power to weight is equalize by rules then the braking and handling advantage goes to the lighter car. So if the power to weight is really made equal then the lighter car has an advantage. If the rules were being administer by a 944 biased panel it would seem to make sense to establish a minimum weight of 2500 (for safety’s sake of course!). Then things would be more equal.
Another issue is the chassis rules – 944s can’t use a tube frame front end (which would be a nice thing). The 911 guys seem to be OK with their chassis since there is not a lot of weight up front. As a result tube framing the front end is not legal. Engine mods are basically free but there are chassis restrictions that favor a lighter chassis as well as a rear engine chassis….hmmm, I don’t get that.
So to sum it up – the rules have been changed to remove what was perceived as a 944 advantage in one class. The end result is that the rules as a whole favor a lighter vehicle. As soon as somebody can figure out how to safely make a 1900 lb 944 please let me know….
BTW – the very subtle ‘smooth move’ by the factoring system is that the ‘economical’ 944 based car has been given the shaft.
If we make some reasonable assumptions -2.5 liter 2v engine, 2700 lb car and 180lb driver….guess what happens – they are now in GT2. Coincidence? I couldn’t say, but it does seem kind of convenient. A small change in the factor and the ‘economical’ 944T would have been in the sweet spot of the GT3 class.
A Normally aspirated 911 – 3.6 liter, 2000 lb car and 180 lb driver….gee, it comes in right at the high end of GT3…again, kind of convenient.
If I want to run a 2.5 liter 16V 944 turbo? I would have to add ballast to the stock weight to stay in GT3 or redesign the motor to a 2.8 and get the car to 2700 to be good for GT2.
I am starting to think that GT2 will be the new 944 zone….but not a cheap place for an entry level team…

Spidey944

This whole thing, from the perspective of someone who has not yet made the jump into PCA racing, just seems like another situation where the 944 is being treated as the red-headed stepchild once again.....

hp18racer

Chris, maybe I misunderstood, looks to me like a (944T + driver) is allowed 2700lb so the car can be about 2500 and still be GT3.

Duke

But to get a 911 that light, you need an old 911. And a 911 from the 70's need looot's of work to get the same handling as..say a "heavy" factory standard 997 GT3 RS.
I actually don't get the weight thing.... If a 944 can't be lightened to the same degree as a 911 - tough luck. Then the 944 obviously isn't as competitive as a 911... I can't see how that is unfair?

Many people here claim how the 944 is "superior" over the 911's on the track. Like it's balance etc. etc. But how come it's unfair for the 911's to have the ability to make them lighter?

I might miss some points but I'm sorry to say that to me it seems like you guys aare whining as much as you're claiming the 911 guys to do.

Jeff Lamb

Scott and Chris, thank you for your replies. You guys are probably some of the most passionate folks I know regarding racing 944 Turbos and I do appreciate your contributions to this debate. It is helping me gain a better understanding of all of the different views you have on the subject.

I too love 944 Turbos and although I recently bought a normally aspirated 911 race car, I might go back to a 944 Turbo race car at some point. The guy who bought my 944 Turbo project (that I ineptly couldn't finish) will probably be taking the GT2 class "to school" in 2008.

The main thing that is bothering me with this debate is that a number of the supporters of the 944 Turbos feel that the PCA is singling out the 944 Turbo and treating it unfairly. To you I ask -> WHAT ABOUT ALL OF THE GUYS RUNNING 911 TURBOS??? In my opinion, they are receiving an even higher challenge than the 944 Turbo crowd. So I again go back to my original point which is -> This is not an issue of the PCA putting 944 Turbos at a disadvantage. This is an issue of the PCA having to figure out how to put in place a system to try to balance cars running turbo engines vs. normally aspirated engines. And, that is not easy.

Some of the other arguments that have come up:

* 911s have more transmission choices - I agree. However, there is nothing preventing the 944 Turbo crowd from running a 911 trans. That was what I was going to do with my 944 Turbo race car had I finished it. Just modify a 911 trans to run it upside down or reverse the ring and pinion.

* The PCA rules have more restrictions on 944 chassis mods than 911 mods - I agree with this one too and this is a frustrating one. However, there are creative ways to build and engineer a very nice 944 Turbo chassis that are allowed.

* 944 turbos are heavier than 911s -> I don't believe this is a very good argument. I have seen at least one 944 Turbo race car that weighs 2,100 pounds with a very nice cage. So, it is possible to build a safe 944 Turbo race car that is very light weight. As a further note, most of the guys who have built 911 race cars weighing 2,000 pounds have put the same or more work into their chassis than the guy who built the 2,100 pound 944 Turbo. The 944 Turbo crowd just needs to step up their chassis development and engineering to match what the 911 crowd has been doing for quite some time now.

* The 911s have more development and more parts choices - This is simply because there are more 911s out there and guys have been working on them longer. Although, I still don't understand why all the 911 stuff seems to cost MORE than the 944 stuff. You would think it would be the reverse when you consider the simple supply and demand equation. And, many of the 911 items can be used on 944 Turbos.

In closing, I personally don't feel that the PCA is singling out the 944 Turbo and trying to treat it unfairly. There is at least one high profile guy running a very nice 944 Turbo race car who was involved in the development of the new rules. The new rules are a challenge for all turbo cars - both 944 and 911.

This whole "the 911 guys hate the 944 Turbos" comment just isn't good for our PCA racing community as a whole and I encourage all of us to focus our energy elsewhere. Although there are some 911 guys who dislike 944s, there are just as many 944 owners who believe 911s are inferior. This is not a good use of our time. We just need to respect that every Porsche is a great car and focus on the issue of how to properly treat cars running turbo engines versus those running normally aspirated engines. This new PI concept will make 2008 and future years very interesting.

Jeff

A.Wayne

The rules are fair and based on the free for all in the past , about time. You cannot have rules to help poorly prepared cars . Moderately modified cars cannot be competitive in the GT classes , so the rules have to make sense for the top tier not the middle or the bottom. Poorly prepared 944T's will be slow , same as for 911's, 914's etc, in the end the turbos are still unrestricted , a freebie in todays racing and a big advantage to the 944T's running in GT3 or GT2 ....

Chris White

Here is your comment with some mods….!
If an NA 911 can't make as much HP as a turbo 944 then tough luck . Then the 911 obviously isn't as competitive as a 944... I can't see how that is unfair?
So PCA has legislated “only” the engines to be even without paying attention to other competitive advantages.

Under Pressure Performance

Jeff,

Unfortunately, being in the middle of my work day, I do not have the time to respond fully to your last post right now, but I promise that once you read my more complete text/thoughts on the subject you will begin to see what I mean.

For now, I will state that I am NOT one of the 911 vs 944 guys - Truth be told, we LOVE to run against them and would greatly miss the guy we run against if we were to change classes, which is why we want to stay in GT3.

As a teaser for my text to follow, let me just say this... I disagree with your position that Porsche does not know how to handle turbo cars in club racing, and I do not subscribe to conspiracy theory, but under the new rules, think about how many turbo 4 cylinder cars will have to change class versus the number of 6 cylinder turbo cars that will have to change class. THAT is my point. So to argue that this rule change was NOT designed to move a target group (4 cylinder turbo cars) into another class is inherently wrong. It is EXACTLY what the rule was meant to do.

This rule change is not new news to me, we have been following along with it for the past few years and have seen it develop to what it is today. At every juncture, during every conversation, the POINT was to change the rules to get the "competitive" 944T's out of GT3 and into another class. This is not an opinion, it is reality. Again, I know people on both sides of the rules advisory board, and the point of the rule was never vague. It was as clear as could be.

Your points are valid as far as the turbo 911 having a higher PI, BUT it does not result in a class change for the car, it means NOTHING. The PI for the guy running a moderately tuned, relatively light 944T that is already not competitive in GT3, now has to either add weight and be slower, or move into GT2 and get beat up there. Truth be told, the fast 944T guys will always be fast, regardless of the rule changes, and regardless what class they run in. It is the MAJORITY of the 944T guys that do not have $200,000- $500,000 in a 944T, THOSE are the guys that suffer.

The big budget 944 guys can afford to re-develop, and rebuild as required, but the majority of 944T guys in club racing can't, and it is them that I feel for.

Fact is, the 911 based cars were not affected by the rule change, so the argument about a 944 and a 911 both the same weight with driver is a mute point. The 911 does not have to change class, so it is a non issue if a turbo 911 were to run in GT3 it would have to be a 2.65L - Nobody is doing that. So, yes, if you want to build a turbo 911 and run in GT3, you would be up against the same disadvantage as the 2.6L 944T guy in his 2700 pound car in GT2 (too light for GT3, not a chance of being competitive in GT2) The only difference is that the 944T guy is forced into the scenario of spending money to be even remotely competitive in either class, whereas the 911 guy only has to worry about the price of gas for next season.

Not sure if I am making my point clear enough, but the underlying point is that contrary to what you believe, this rule change was blatantly directed at a target group. Again, this is not conspiracy theory, I have been actively involved in this debate for the past few years and nobody hides the fact that the objective was to get the fast 944T guys in GT3 either out of the class, or find a way to slow them down in GT3 - That IS, and has been, what this is all about. The rules do not coincidentally not affect the 911 guys.

Sure you could argue that the same rules apply to all racers, and they do, but there is not class change, OR PENALTY for virtually all existing 911's regardless of class. The fast 911 turbo cars were already in GT1, they stay in GT1 - The faster N/A 911 cars were already in GT2, they stay in GT2 - There are no borderline transitions for the 911 guys, whereas virtually all modified 944T cars have a decision to make - That is the bottom line.

Again, I welcome this rule change, and I embrace it - But only because I know my ability as an engine builder and tuner, and I know the ability of my customers and their ability to drive, and their ability to afford to make the necessary changes to remain competitive. But, I sadly empathize with the overwhelming majority of 944T guys that this rule change will ultimately hurt.

Stay tuned...

Chris White

Actually its 2760 min total with a 2.5 8v.

Skip Wolfe

That is what is being done in NASA's GTS Challenge. So far it seems to be working and more and more guys in my region are bailing out of PCA to NASA.

http://www.gtschallenge.com/

Chris White

That gives me a great idea – why don’t we all start painting the roofs of our 944 track cars red…
We can all be red headed stepchildren….

Jeff Lamb

What?? Your reply doesn't make sense in the above paragraph that you wrote. A guy running a 2.6 liter 911 turbo in GT3 will have the SAME issues as a 2.6 liter 944 Turbo. The 2.6 liter 911 Turbo WILL change from GT3 to GT2 under the new rules just like the 944 Turbo will. Only the 944 Turbo has the advantage of being assigned a lower HP/L number so the 944 turbo could increase engine size to 2.8 liters in GT2, whereas, the 911 Turbo is stuck at 2.6 liters (assuming similar combined total weight of car and driver). I think this gives the advantage to the 944 Turbos over the 911 Turbos in GT2. I do agree with you that the number of 2.6 liter 911 Turbos in GT3 is probably small (or maybe even nonexistant?). However, I think it will be very cool to see how the turbo cars run in GT2 since they were not allowed there under the old rules.

One other important point -> I think the normally aspirated 911s running in GT3 under the old rules were pretty much developed to their limit with next to nothing left to be gained by further development. Whereas, EVERY 944 Turbo running in GT3 under the old rules still has a lot of development gains still possible (both engine and chassis). Don't get me wrong, there are some big dollar 944 Turbos running the series but every one of them I have seen STILL has significant further gains that can be made in their development.

I agree with you that it is unfortunate that the guy who only spent $20,000 or less on his 944 Turbo will have a much more difficult time in GT3 under the new rules. However, it is important to keep in mind that most of the 911 guys he was competing with have over $50,000 invested in their engine alone!!

Jeff

Jeff Lamb

How does the NASA GTS series deal with the turbo guys who turn down their boost for their dyno runs during tech inspections and then secretly turn up the boost when on the track??

Jeff

Chris White

Bit of a stretch...who would build a 2800+ lb 911 turbo with a 2.6l engine?