Ball bearing turbo upgrade
10-23-2007, 01:53 PM
#31
Drifting
Good thread. Some good points.
My observation from being a car nut and have had at the same time a 951 and an EVO. The Jap croud was not as interested in road racing or tracking their cars. They were mainly into the 1/4 mile stuff. There were not many of us EVO drivers that actually raced our cars. We found that a 400 to 450whp EVO was about the limits you could use at the track. We turned the boost down on the dirt portions.
These were fast cars with this power. The guy that tuned my car, www.dynoflash.com had an EVO that was in the 10's with a stock motor. This car was nuts, and not at all appropriate for a road race.
The point here is that I've never met a 951 croud that is interested in an all out 1/4 mile car. Most of us are interested in road racing. Consistent and reliable power in the 300 to 500whp range. I bet my new 3.0 motor would hit a very high number at a quick 35psi run on the dyno. This would grenade on the track, just like a Honda motor putting down 700whp. Many of these sleeved Honda motors that put down 700 to 1000whp that run the quarter don't even run WATER. At least this is what I was told. Their intercoolers have a seperate compartment that is stuffed with dry ice to cool the intake charge.
These are not road racing cars. They are all out quarter mile runners. Much to learn from them.
Back in 1970's Indy cars typically used an Offenhauser 4 cylinder engine with unlimited boost and were making over a thousand hp. But as the cars overall sophistication increased, so did the speeds. So limiting the boost level here became the limiting factor for this sanctioning body.
George
My observation from being a car nut and have had at the same time a 951 and an EVO. The Jap croud was not as interested in road racing or tracking their cars. They were mainly into the 1/4 mile stuff. There were not many of us EVO drivers that actually raced our cars. We found that a 400 to 450whp EVO was about the limits you could use at the track. We turned the boost down on the dirt portions.
These were fast cars with this power. The guy that tuned my car, www.dynoflash.com had an EVO that was in the 10's with a stock motor. This car was nuts, and not at all appropriate for a road race.
The point here is that I've never met a 951 croud that is interested in an all out 1/4 mile car. Most of us are interested in road racing. Consistent and reliable power in the 300 to 500whp range. I bet my new 3.0 motor would hit a very high number at a quick 35psi run on the dyno. This would grenade on the track, just like a Honda motor putting down 700whp. Many of these sleeved Honda motors that put down 700 to 1000whp that run the quarter don't even run WATER. At least this is what I was told. Their intercoolers have a seperate compartment that is stuffed with dry ice to cool the intake charge.
These are not road racing cars. They are all out quarter mile runners. Much to learn from them.
Back in 1970's Indy cars typically used an Offenhauser 4 cylinder engine with unlimited boost and were making over a thousand hp. But as the cars overall sophistication increased, so did the speeds. So limiting the boost level here became the limiting factor for this sanctioning body.
George
10-23-2007, 02:16 PM
#32
Nordschleife Master
Good thread. Some good points.
My observation from being a car nut and have had at the same time a 951 and an EVO. The Jap croud was not as interested in road racing or tracking their cars. They were mainly into the 1/4 mile stuff. There were not many of us EVO drivers that actually raced our cars. We found that a 400 to 450whp EVO was about the limits you could use at the track. We turned the boost down on the dirt portions.
These were fast cars with this power. The guy that tuned my car, www.dynoflash.com had an EVO that was in the 10's with a stock motor. This car was nuts, and not at all appropriate for a road race.
The point here is that I've never met a 951 croud that is interested in an all out 1/4 mile car. Most of us are interested in road racing. Consistent and reliable power in the 300 to 500whp range. I bet my new 3.0 motor would hit a very high number at a quick 35psi run on the dyno. This would grenade on the track, just like a Honda motor putting down 700whp. Many of these sleeved Honda motors that put down 700 to 1000whp that run the quarter don't even run WATER. At least this is what I was told. Their intercoolers have a seperate compartment that is stuffed with dry ice to cool the intake charge.
These are not road racing cars. They are all out quarter mile runners. Much to learn from them.
Back in 1970's Indy cars typically used an Offenhauser 4 cylinder engine with unlimited boost and were making over a thousand hp. But as the cars overall sophistication increased, so did the speeds. So limiting the boost level here became the limiting factor for this sanctioning body.
George
My observation from being a car nut and have had at the same time a 951 and an EVO. The Jap croud was not as interested in road racing or tracking their cars. They were mainly into the 1/4 mile stuff. There were not many of us EVO drivers that actually raced our cars. We found that a 400 to 450whp EVO was about the limits you could use at the track. We turned the boost down on the dirt portions.
These were fast cars with this power. The guy that tuned my car, www.dynoflash.com had an EVO that was in the 10's with a stock motor. This car was nuts, and not at all appropriate for a road race.
The point here is that I've never met a 951 croud that is interested in an all out 1/4 mile car. Most of us are interested in road racing. Consistent and reliable power in the 300 to 500whp range. I bet my new 3.0 motor would hit a very high number at a quick 35psi run on the dyno. This would grenade on the track, just like a Honda motor putting down 700whp. Many of these sleeved Honda motors that put down 700 to 1000whp that run the quarter don't even run WATER. At least this is what I was told. Their intercoolers have a seperate compartment that is stuffed with dry ice to cool the intake charge.
These are not road racing cars. They are all out quarter mile runners. Much to learn from them.
Back in 1970's Indy cars typically used an Offenhauser 4 cylinder engine with unlimited boost and were making over a thousand hp. But as the cars overall sophistication increased, so did the speeds. So limiting the boost level here became the limiting factor for this sanctioning body.
George
10-23-2007, 02:25 PM
#33
Formula One Spin Doctor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Your right its a result of EGT and fuel mixture more directly. Altho, it must be said that EGT's tend to increase as HP increases at a given A/F ratio. I think this is mainly the result of more stress on your turbo/supercharger (more boost) causing them to produce more heat. Though we also know that more power leads to more heat in the motor as there is more power being produced and along with it more heat. Sodium valves have two advantages that being weight and heat over a standard valve. Now, the only advantage the 8v head will have is in heat over the 16v head. The actual advantage in weight of the exhaust valve is offset by the larger valve size of the 2v setup vs the 4v setup. Also, the turbo head from what I understand is only outfitted with sodium filled exhaust valves. This means that it sees minimal benefits of sodium valves (You can reduce valve spring weight on the exhaust valve and thus reduce amount of effort needed to spin the cam shaft.) in terms of weight as the intake valve being larger is still the weak link. I don't know how much power is lost to the higher valve spring weight of the 16v head but I think the benefits of the head are so numerous that this concern is hardly even worth mentioning.
10-23-2007, 02:26 PM
#34
Practically every model of production car from Japan has seen some 700-1000+whp power levels at some point. That's a bit of an exaggeration of course but, you get the idea. The 951 community is still fighting an uphill battle on one leg to break the 600whp mark. The Japanese tuning industry was pushing 1000whp back in the late 80's and early 90's. Dyno queen power sure isn't for everyone, and it's not what these cars were really built for, however pushing the limits in any form serves to really improve the public/community knowledge and further the progress of any vehicle. 951's have "truck" motors. They're nice, but not the greatest car in the world, get over it. The main problem I see from this community is many here are off in their own little world trying to reinvent the wheel. So what if the Japanese market has managed to push the limits farther? There's nothing wrong with having a bit of humility and looking at what they or other communities have done to accomplish certain things, though some here are too proud to do that and will never learn.
951 motors are not that dissimilar from Honda motors in that they both have an open block design and both can be improved in much the same manner with sleeves. I know it's blasphemy to speak this here however, there is a lot that could be learned without trial and error in this regard simply by browsing some Honda forums. Those guys have managed to find solutions and easily push well past 800-1000whp. Nothing wrong with learning from someone that's been there. There are differences in the motors of course, but there's nothing wrong with seeing what other people do to fix the same problems. That's about enough OT from me.
951 motors are not that dissimilar from Honda motors in that they both have an open block design and both can be improved in much the same manner with sleeves. I know it's blasphemy to speak this here however, there is a lot that could be learned without trial and error in this regard simply by browsing some Honda forums. Those guys have managed to find solutions and easily push well past 800-1000whp. Nothing wrong with learning from someone that's been there. There are differences in the motors of course, but there's nothing wrong with seeing what other people do to fix the same problems. That's about enough OT from me.
Instead of whining and crying and telling everyone how great everything else is compared to the 951 how about actually building one for real - like Tool and several others have - and then showing what can be done. No offense but I lost all respect for your criticism the minute you decided to part out your car after all the big talk about what you have done with other cars.
P.S. 1000 HP from a 951 engine was attained years ago in the Norwood Doom car. Talk to Scott Gomes if you want more details. Not like that motor would be practical for the day to day driving that 99.99% of us do.
10-23-2007, 02:31 PM
#35
10-23-2007, 02:35 PM
#36
Nordschleife Master
RPM has more effect on EGT than BHP, a 7000 rpm 1500 bhp big block chevy will run much lower EGT's than a 14000 rpm 1500 CC engine producing 300 bhp. Bore stroke ratio's , CR , Fuel octane , all come into play in determining your final operating EGT values. In race engines we use Inconel if EGT becomes a concern over sodium valves.. The 16 V head has a tremendous advantage over the 8V and on a street engine the stock valve type will not be of any concern , unless of course you happen to live in germany where you can run flat out for miles.
10-23-2007, 02:41 PM
#37
Drifting
Even the people doing the road racing are building the cars wrong and are missing the point. The 951 is still a lag machine on the track and even with 400whp cars with less HP will run faster times as they don't have the lag to deal with from the turbo. I see 944 turbos get blown away expecially coming in out of tight corners into short straits they just lose all sorts of time. Its one of the reasons that S2 cars can hand it to a turbo car on a lot of the tight tracks. Also, alot of the 944 turbo cars cannot produce big numbers because the way people build them is pants on head retarded.
You really have to get out more. Making the statement that my motor or similar build was built pants on head retarded is just silly. Please enlighten me on how to do it properly. I will listen. I am an open book both ways.
G
You really have to get out more. Making the statement that my motor or similar build was built pants on head retarded is just silly. Please enlighten me on how to do it properly. I will listen. I am an open book both ways.
G
10-23-2007, 02:48 PM
#38
Nordschleife Master
ROFL, these guys build motors to race in certain classes. So, can I build a motor that is faster around a track then them? Yep! I don't have to follow the rules of a racing class its a big advantage. Also, I have seen one Jon's customers 968 turbo cars with so much money into it it was rediculous and it didn't impress me in the least in terms of its performance.
10-23-2007, 02:49 PM
#40
Nordschleife Master
Even the people doing the road racing are building the cars wrong and are missing the point. The 951 is still a lag machine on the track and even with 400whp cars with less HP will run faster times as they don't have the lag to deal with from the turbo. I see 944 turbos get blown away expecially coming in out of tight corners into short straits they just lose all sorts of time. Its one of the reasons that S2 cars can hand it to a turbo car on a lot of the tight tracks. Also, alot of the 944 turbo cars cannot produce big numbers because the way people build them is pants on head retarded.
You really have to get out more. Making the statement that my motor or similar build was built pants on head retarded is just silly. Please enlighten me on how to do it properly. I will listen. I am an open book both ways.
G
You really have to get out more. Making the statement that my motor or similar build was built pants on head retarded is just silly. Please enlighten me on how to do it properly. I will listen. I am an open book both ways.
G
10-23-2007, 02:51 PM
#41
Formula One Spin Doctor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Good thread. Some good points.
My observation from being a car nut and have had at the same time a 951 and an EVO. The Jap croud was not as interested in road racing or tracking their cars. They were mainly into the 1/4 mile stuff. There were not many of us EVO drivers that actually raced our cars. We found that a 400 to 450whp EVO was about the limits you could use at the track. We turned the boost down on the dirt portions.
These were fast cars with this power. The guy that tuned my car, www.dynoflash.com had an EVO that was in the 10's with a stock motor. This car was nuts, and not at all appropriate for a road race.
The point here is that I've never met a 951 croud that is interested in an all out 1/4 mile car. Most of us are interested in road racing. Consistent and reliable power in the 300 to 500whp range. I bet my new 3.0 motor would hit a very high number at a quick 35psi run on the dyno. This would grenade on the track, just like a Honda motor putting down 700whp. Many of these sleeved Honda motors that put down 700 to 1000whp that run the quarter don't even run WATER. At least this is what I was told. Their intercoolers have a seperate compartment that is stuffed with dry ice to cool the intake charge.
These are not road racing cars. They are all out quarter mile runners. Much to learn from them.
Back in 1970's Indy cars typically used an Offenhauser 4 cylinder engine with unlimited boost and were making over a thousand hp. But as the cars overall sophistication increased, so did the speeds. So limiting the boost level here became the limiting factor for this sanctioning body.
George
My observation from being a car nut and have had at the same time a 951 and an EVO. The Jap croud was not as interested in road racing or tracking their cars. They were mainly into the 1/4 mile stuff. There were not many of us EVO drivers that actually raced our cars. We found that a 400 to 450whp EVO was about the limits you could use at the track. We turned the boost down on the dirt portions.
These were fast cars with this power. The guy that tuned my car, www.dynoflash.com had an EVO that was in the 10's with a stock motor. This car was nuts, and not at all appropriate for a road race.
The point here is that I've never met a 951 croud that is interested in an all out 1/4 mile car. Most of us are interested in road racing. Consistent and reliable power in the 300 to 500whp range. I bet my new 3.0 motor would hit a very high number at a quick 35psi run on the dyno. This would grenade on the track, just like a Honda motor putting down 700whp. Many of these sleeved Honda motors that put down 700 to 1000whp that run the quarter don't even run WATER. At least this is what I was told. Their intercoolers have a seperate compartment that is stuffed with dry ice to cool the intake charge.
These are not road racing cars. They are all out quarter mile runners. Much to learn from them.
Back in 1970's Indy cars typically used an Offenhauser 4 cylinder engine with unlimited boost and were making over a thousand hp. But as the cars overall sophistication increased, so did the speeds. So limiting the boost level here became the limiting factor for this sanctioning body.
George
Hp was capped at 500 as you had to run an FIA 51 MM restrictor in front of the turbo,,, We where eventually defeated by an ex AJR 996 GT3 RSR , finishing second ....in the championship.
10-23-2007, 02:51 PM
#42
ROFL, these guys build motors to race in certain classes. So, can I build a motor that is faster around a track then them? Yep! I don't have to follow the rules of a racing class its a big advantage. Also, I have seen one Jon's customers 968 turbo cars with so much money into it it was rediculous and it didn't impress me in the least in terms of its performance.
10-23-2007, 02:51 PM
#43
Nordschleife Master
10-23-2007, 02:54 PM
#44
We are talking road course racing here....not some glorified nitrous run. Any monkey with a crescent wrench can bolt on a bottle of NOS and make a 1/4 mile pass. NOS is the "pants on head" retarded way to make power in my opinion. Not that difficult to do.
10-23-2007, 02:55 PM
#45
Formula One Spin Doctor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Even the people doing the road racing are building the cars wrong and are missing the point. The 951 is still a lag machine on the track and even with 400whp cars with less HP will run faster times as they don't have the lag to deal with from the turbo. I see 944 turbos get blown away expecially coming in out of tight corners into short straits they just lose all sorts of time. Its one of the reasons that S2 cars can hand it to a turbo car on a lot of the tight tracks. Also, alot of the 944 turbo cars cannot produce big numbers because the way people build them is pants on head retarded.
You really have to get out more. Making the statement that my motor or similar build was built pants on head retarded is just silly. Please enlighten me on how to do it properly. I will listen. I am an open book both ways.
G
You really have to get out more. Making the statement that my motor or similar build was built pants on head retarded is just silly. Please enlighten me on how to do it properly. I will listen. I am an open book both ways.
G