951 Project by DanG = 2.7L MID + Megasquirt + Garrett GT-R
07-07-2005, 06:16 PM
#1
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
DanG's 2.7L MID Big Bore Build Thread
Started the thread here...
https://rennlist.com/forums/924-931-944-951-968-forum/371584-951-project-by-dang-2-7l-mid-megasquirt-garrett-gt-r.html
Click over to that other thread for more details.
http://evilengineering.com/gallery/v...nster/eVil951/
A quick summary:
Its an 86 951 with 160k miles and needs a rebuild. Bought it for $4700 because it was LOADED with all the goodies I would've wanted to buy anyways. So I'm looking at about a $3k or less bill to get the motor rebuilt, but then I'll have a car thats within 90% of how I would spec one out if I had a clean slate. I'll add some 968 mirrors and probably a cross drilled crank with a baffled 9R pan, and be good to go, knowing it everything is fresh.
I listed all the goodies it comes with in that other thread (pulled from the ebay auction). I'll have more pics and details tomorrow.
[cartman]kick ***![/cartman]
https://rennlist.com/forums/924-931-944-951-968-forum/371584-951-project-by-dang-2-7l-mid-megasquirt-garrett-gt-r.html
Click over to that other thread for more details.
http://evilengineering.com/gallery/v...nster/eVil951/
A quick summary:
Its an 86 951 with 160k miles and needs a rebuild. Bought it for $4700 because it was LOADED with all the goodies I would've wanted to buy anyways. So I'm looking at about a $3k or less bill to get the motor rebuilt, but then I'll have a car thats within 90% of how I would spec one out if I had a clean slate. I'll add some 968 mirrors and probably a cross drilled crank with a baffled 9R pan, and be good to go, knowing it everything is fresh.
I listed all the goodies it comes with in that other thread (pulled from the ebay auction). I'll have more pics and details tomorrow.
[cartman]kick ***![/cartman]
Last edited by DanG; 11-15-2007 at 12:46 AM.
07-08-2005, 02:46 AM
#4
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I'll do all my own work except for the initial rebuild. I don't have the time and skills to do that myself. I figure I got the car cheap enough that I could afford to pay for the rebuild and still come out better than or even with buying a similar car w/ a "good" running engine.
I do have a question, I promise to search through some old threads for help on this too... what is recommended to be replaced/upgraded on a 160k mile motor that will be seeing increased boost and/or track time? I'd probably keep the boost turned down on the track for a few years, as I'd still be learning how to drive it. So I'm looking at oil starvation and overheating prevention. Do '86 cars have an oil cooler or not? Trans cooler? Is the stock radiator up to the task of 20-minute lapping sessions? As far as boost goes... the occasional blast to 20 psi would be nice to have available. Obviously the rest of the engine management would be set up to do this properly, but are there any suggestions for things I should do mechanically while the engine is appart? Should I swap out that 944 NA cam in there for a plain turbo one (or more fun with an aftermarket one like JME or webcam). Or should I get an adjustable cam pulley and try to tweak the NA cam timing? What about head work. Any "must do" mods for breaking the 300 whp barrier? 3 angle valve job? Porting? How about Tial WGs and the 3 piece crossover tube? Must do upgrades?
I'm not looking for excuses to throw money at the car, but if there are specific things that might hold me back in the near future, I'd like to address them ASAP, and take advantage of having the car all apart. Basically just fill me in on the things you wish you would have done with your 951 right away.
I have a brand new Cup/Sport clutch disc (the one with 4 springs instead of 6) I picked up on ebay for a whopping $50. Is it worth getting a new/upgraded pressure plate at the same time (I'll have the flywheel reground, possibly lightened)? What hp/tq levels do the sport disc + stock PP start slipping? Probably at least 350 or so, right?
I already have 2 more upgrades in my possesion. I got in on the Lotek dual gauge a-pillar group buy a few months back, so I'll be relocating the boost gauge there, and probably installing a wideband O2 gauge to go with it. And I picked up a pair of 1 month old Corbeau A4 reclinable seats locally about two months ago for $375/pair. A pair of porsche crest patches just arrived from a nice seller in Hong Kong, so I'll be copying what theedge did here...
I still have to pick up a set of belts to go with it. Since I'll only be doing DEs, I'll probably keep the stock belts in the car for daily driving duty, then switch to the harnesses at the track. Plus I could probably pick up some belts that have just passed their "use by" date for sanctioned racing purposes pretty cheap. I'll have to pick a good color for these!
I do have a question, I promise to search through some old threads for help on this too... what is recommended to be replaced/upgraded on a 160k mile motor that will be seeing increased boost and/or track time? I'd probably keep the boost turned down on the track for a few years, as I'd still be learning how to drive it. So I'm looking at oil starvation and overheating prevention. Do '86 cars have an oil cooler or not? Trans cooler? Is the stock radiator up to the task of 20-minute lapping sessions? As far as boost goes... the occasional blast to 20 psi would be nice to have available. Obviously the rest of the engine management would be set up to do this properly, but are there any suggestions for things I should do mechanically while the engine is appart? Should I swap out that 944 NA cam in there for a plain turbo one (or more fun with an aftermarket one like JME or webcam). Or should I get an adjustable cam pulley and try to tweak the NA cam timing? What about head work. Any "must do" mods for breaking the 300 whp barrier? 3 angle valve job? Porting? How about Tial WGs and the 3 piece crossover tube? Must do upgrades?
I'm not looking for excuses to throw money at the car, but if there are specific things that might hold me back in the near future, I'd like to address them ASAP, and take advantage of having the car all apart. Basically just fill me in on the things you wish you would have done with your 951 right away.
I have a brand new Cup/Sport clutch disc (the one with 4 springs instead of 6) I picked up on ebay for a whopping $50. Is it worth getting a new/upgraded pressure plate at the same time (I'll have the flywheel reground, possibly lightened)? What hp/tq levels do the sport disc + stock PP start slipping? Probably at least 350 or so, right?
I already have 2 more upgrades in my possesion. I got in on the Lotek dual gauge a-pillar group buy a few months back, so I'll be relocating the boost gauge there, and probably installing a wideband O2 gauge to go with it. And I picked up a pair of 1 month old Corbeau A4 reclinable seats locally about two months ago for $375/pair. A pair of porsche crest patches just arrived from a nice seller in Hong Kong, so I'll be copying what theedge did here...
I still have to pick up a set of belts to go with it. Since I'll only be doing DEs, I'll probably keep the stock belts in the car for daily driving duty, then switch to the harnesses at the track. Plus I could probably pick up some belts that have just passed their "use by" date for sanctioned racing purposes pretty cheap. I'll have to pick a good color for these!
Last edited by DanG; 07-08-2005 at 04:47 PM.
07-08-2005, 06:30 AM
#7
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
I saw your link, so I know someone else is doing the work. For that price I presume the person is a close friend. 3k usually won't scratch the surface, but i see what you already have installed. (The cheapest engine rebuild I've seen is 4200.00)
Get a new Tial WG. Get Vitesse racing to make the car breath properly. (That's 3600.00 and you can get pretty damned close to 400 rwhp.) You can do that on a stock short block build.
Leave the cam alone. If you want one from JME, that's fine, but it needs to match your intended powerband. (Gonna race it? Might want longer legs, street you want a sprinter's cam. Make this last.)
Get the highest flow exhaust (3inch is MORE than enough for a 2.5.) that you can. Lose the cat if possible.
Chips, Chips, chips. Get them from Vitesse
I keep saying Vitesse. Suspicious? Fair too be. Search all of the threads by Rennlist member special tool. you won't be anymore. How's 450+ rwhp AND torque, with a stock bottom end. Yep Vitesse Stage 3 , Vitesse big head. Zeitronix WBO2, and profec b EBC.
He also has a totally mismatched Andial cam. Send him a pm.
24 psi on race got him right at the edge of 500 last dyno. (on a Mustang Dyno.)
Get a new Tial WG. Get Vitesse racing to make the car breath properly. (That's 3600.00 and you can get pretty damned close to 400 rwhp.) You can do that on a stock short block build.
Leave the cam alone. If you want one from JME, that's fine, but it needs to match your intended powerband. (Gonna race it? Might want longer legs, street you want a sprinter's cam. Make this last.)
Get the highest flow exhaust (3inch is MORE than enough for a 2.5.) that you can. Lose the cat if possible.
Chips, Chips, chips. Get them from Vitesse
I keep saying Vitesse. Suspicious? Fair too be. Search all of the threads by Rennlist member special tool. you won't be anymore. How's 450+ rwhp AND torque, with a stock bottom end. Yep Vitesse Stage 3 , Vitesse big head. Zeitronix WBO2, and profec b EBC.
He also has a totally mismatched Andial cam. Send him a pm.
24 psi on race got him right at the edge of 500 last dyno. (on a Mustang Dyno.)
Trending Topics
07-08-2005, 06:38 AM
#8
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Also, lightening the crqnk/turning weight, can create some significant hp help. the guy I mentioned, removed 18 lbs from his flywheel, pp, and clutch. Others "knife edge" the crank.
As for oiling, use an extra quart. Noone has PROVEN that they have a way to solve the 2nd bearing issue.
Lastly, it's ALL ABOUT TUNING PROPERLY!
That's why Vitesse always wins this battle.
There are some on this board using Mafterburner, on 3.0 8 valves, that can't turn up the boost past 18 psi, because they can't get the car tuned well enough. That's a lot of dough to be beaten by a 2600 lb 2.5 l of the same model. That's what special tool has. Seriously, pm the guy. It will save you thousands, as it has me.
As for oiling, use an extra quart. Noone has PROVEN that they have a way to solve the 2nd bearing issue.
Lastly, it's ALL ABOUT TUNING PROPERLY!
That's why Vitesse always wins this battle.
There are some on this board using Mafterburner, on 3.0 8 valves, that can't turn up the boost past 18 psi, because they can't get the car tuned well enough. That's a lot of dough to be beaten by a 2600 lb 2.5 l of the same model. That's what special tool has. Seriously, pm the guy. It will save you thousands, as it has me.
07-08-2005, 07:14 AM
#9
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by DanG
I was heavily considering selling one/both my ********* to buy Ian's "Red Rocket" a few months back, congrats on that purchase Jonathan!
One of these days if I have to turn it loose, you will be the second person I offer it to. Guess who the first person is... that's right, Ian himself. 
07-08-2005, 05:42 PM
#10
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Hey guys, I posted a wanted ad in that section of the forums for some of the upgraded parts I'll be looking to install.
Please take a look and see if you have anything I might need...
https://rennlist.com/forums/for-sale-ads-member-to-member-fs-wtb-free/214463-wtb-parts-for-a-hi-po-951-buildup.html
Thanks!
Please take a look and see if you have anything I might need...
https://rennlist.com/forums/for-sale-ads-member-to-member-fs-wtb-free/214463-wtb-parts-for-a-hi-po-951-buildup.html
Thanks!
07-13-2005, 04:34 PM
#11
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
(another XP from the main 944 forum, sorry!)
Some pics my dad took when he went up to look it over last week...
Don't know why the pass side headlight cover is off, but he has it, its in perfect shape. Also not sure why he had the intake tubes off/apart, I'll have to make sure I'm careful that there's no debris floating around in there now.
The drivers/pass seats will be immediately swapped for those Corbeau A4 reclinables I picked up a few weeks back. So those cracks/rips don't bother me much.
Also, that last pic has me pretty set on getting bright yellow belts for the above mentioned seats. Or I guess I could keep them black too.
I'm actually kindof suprised how much the grey paint under the hood doesnt bother me. I can pretend that it was left purposefully for heat shielding or something. The gold strut bar and red plug wires don't match that much though. I might do something about the strut bar, and I'll be deleting the wires when I got to Coil-On-Plug ignition (MSnS-E) in a few months.
Some pics my dad took when he went up to look it over last week...
Don't know why the pass side headlight cover is off, but he has it, its in perfect shape. Also not sure why he had the intake tubes off/apart, I'll have to make sure I'm careful that there's no debris floating around in there now.
The drivers/pass seats will be immediately swapped for those Corbeau A4 reclinables I picked up a few weeks back. So those cracks/rips don't bother me much.
Also, that last pic has me pretty set on getting bright yellow belts for the above mentioned seats. Or I guess I could keep them black too.
I'm actually kindof suprised how much the grey paint under the hood doesnt bother me. I can pretend that it was left purposefully for heat shielding or something. The gold strut bar and red plug wires don't match that much though. I might do something about the strut bar, and I'll be deleting the wires when I got to Coil-On-Plug ignition (MSnS-E) in a few months.
07-18-2005, 02:40 AM
#12
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I'm cross posting again. I dunno how many of you guys don't check the regular 944 board or not. I'll only post the first group of pics, click any of them to go to the rest of the gallery.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow, great weekend. I got to see/feel/smell/sit in the car on Saturday. Met every expectation I had of it, although it will definitely need some work. One of the more positive notes from the weekend was that it turns out the car has a pretty good history. The PO (the guy I bought it from doesn't count, he only drove it 1100 miles!) from Cali dropped some serious cash in the car. I have a pile of receipts totalling ~$9k since he bought it in early 2003. The owner before him lived in AZ, and had all his work done by Chris Cervelli at Powerdyne. He also dropped in the $1500 bill from FRH Int'l for that sweet rolling stock.
For those that have expressed interest: THESE WHEELS ARE NOT FOR SALE. I hinted before that I might be looking for different ones, but if I do, its for track wheels only. I'm hanging onto these puppies, they look sweet!
The tires are friggin huge too. 255 FRONT, 275 rear.
So yeah, $12,229.75 in receipts since 12/26/02 for this car. Wanna hear the kicker? The guy I bought it from paid $14,900
for it just 15 months ago! Drove it from AZ->PA, but it developed the rod knock on the way. Shut the car off when he got home and hasn't started it since. Talk about depreciation! $10k in a little over a year on a 19 year old car.
Another juicy tidbit... with the current powerparts installed, this car was dynoed at 290 rwhp. Thats with a K27/8 7200, APE chips, and 3" mandrel bent turbo-back exhaust. I think everything else is stock. Gotta love that K27/8!
Oh yeah, it has an AIR splitter on the front too. 968 caster blocks. Very light tint on front/mid side windows.
The car goes into the shop first thing tomorrow morning for diagnostics. Hopefully they find a piece of gum on the timing belt and the engine is fixed! Yeah right.
I'm planning to install a crank scraper, maybe a baffled 9R pan (pull it from my non-turbo since none of the would-be buyers would care/pay for it), Raceware head studs, 2pc crossover tube, 38-40 mm Tial WG, aftermarket BOV, and immediate change over to stand alone fuel management (w/ WBO2) too help me sleep at night.
Ok, I can't tease you any more, here are those pics you guys have been DYING to see. I know, I haven't been able to sleep much the past few nights either.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow, great weekend. I got to see/feel/smell/sit in the car on Saturday. Met every expectation I had of it, although it will definitely need some work. One of the more positive notes from the weekend was that it turns out the car has a pretty good history. The PO (the guy I bought it from doesn't count, he only drove it 1100 miles!) from Cali dropped some serious cash in the car. I have a pile of receipts totalling ~$9k since he bought it in early 2003. The owner before him lived in AZ, and had all his work done by Chris Cervelli at Powerdyne. He also dropped in the $1500 bill from FRH Int'l for that sweet rolling stock.
For those that have expressed interest: THESE WHEELS ARE NOT FOR SALE. I hinted before that I might be looking for different ones, but if I do, its for track wheels only. I'm hanging onto these puppies, they look sweet!
The tires are friggin huge too. 255 FRONT, 275 rear.
So yeah, $12,229.75 in receipts since 12/26/02 for this car. Wanna hear the kicker? The guy I bought it from paid $14,900
for it just 15 months ago! Drove it from AZ->PA, but it developed the rod knock on the way. Shut the car off when he got home and hasn't started it since. Talk about depreciation! $10k in a little over a year on a 19 year old car.Another juicy tidbit... with the current powerparts installed, this car was dynoed at 290 rwhp. Thats with a K27/8 7200, APE chips, and 3" mandrel bent turbo-back exhaust. I think everything else is stock. Gotta love that K27/8!
Oh yeah, it has an AIR splitter on the front too. 968 caster blocks. Very light tint on front/mid side windows.
The car goes into the shop first thing tomorrow morning for diagnostics. Hopefully they find a piece of gum on the timing belt and the engine is fixed! Yeah right.
I'm planning to install a crank scraper, maybe a baffled 9R pan (pull it from my non-turbo since none of the would-be buyers would care/pay for it), Raceware head studs, 2pc crossover tube, 38-40 mm Tial WG, aftermarket BOV, and immediate change over to stand alone fuel management (w/ WBO2) too help me sleep at night.
Ok, I can't tease you any more, here are those pics you guys have been DYING to see. I know, I haven't been able to sleep much the past few nights either.
07-22-2005, 06:40 PM
#13
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Another XP from the main 944 board...
-------------------------------------------------
I got the results of the leakdown test today. Looks like the noises with my car MIGHT be only in the head...
Cylinder # . . . . . . 1 . 2 . 3 . 4
Percent Leakage . .6 .16 . 5 . 5
So 1, 3, and 4 are good, 2 is leaking through the valve (can't remember which one they said).
They were able to start the car after the test. I started up fine, but definitely made a big racket. But if its just ONE valve, this repair might not be as expensive as I was thinking it would be. If it does only need headwork, I'll probably go ahead with a full 3/5 angle valve job + a little gasket matching and casting flash cleanup.
However, I can't help but think I should go with a full rebuild. As far as I know this car has a 160k miles on the bearings in there now, the last 20k with the bigger turbo and higher boost. So I'm thinking dropping the money on a rebuild now might be better than getting the car, driving it for a few months, THEN blowing the bottom end of the engine.
I'll have to wait and see though. It will really depend on how things look when the head comes off on Monday.
Also, a little bonus is that the car already has a Tial WG on it. So thats about $300 I won't have to spend. Looking back through my pictures, it seems like it has the two piece crossover tube as well...
Last comment, I just spoke with Kevin Johnson of http://www.crank-scrapers.com/ on the phone. I had sent him an email about 45 minutes ago and he had already called my shop to track me down to discuss payment options. He said the scraper will be built today and shipped out! Amazing service. I decided to order it today just incase it was going to be a long-lead item. Fat chance, with this kind of turnaround. If the rest of the rebuild can go like this order, I'll be thrilled.
Click here for more info on the crank scrapers...
https://rennlist.com/forums/924-931-944-951-968-forum/209369-new-924-944-968-performance-part-available-crank-scraper.html
-------------------------------------------------
I got the results of the leakdown test today. Looks like the noises with my car MIGHT be only in the head...
Cylinder # . . . . . . 1 . 2 . 3 . 4
Percent Leakage . .6 .16 . 5 . 5
So 1, 3, and 4 are good, 2 is leaking through the valve (can't remember which one they said).
They were able to start the car after the test. I started up fine, but definitely made a big racket. But if its just ONE valve, this repair might not be as expensive as I was thinking it would be. If it does only need headwork, I'll probably go ahead with a full 3/5 angle valve job + a little gasket matching and casting flash cleanup.
However, I can't help but think I should go with a full rebuild. As far as I know this car has a 160k miles on the bearings in there now, the last 20k with the bigger turbo and higher boost. So I'm thinking dropping the money on a rebuild now might be better than getting the car, driving it for a few months, THEN blowing the bottom end of the engine.
I'll have to wait and see though. It will really depend on how things look when the head comes off on Monday.
Also, a little bonus is that the car already has a Tial WG on it. So thats about $300 I won't have to spend. Looking back through my pictures, it seems like it has the two piece crossover tube as well...
Last comment, I just spoke with Kevin Johnson of http://www.crank-scrapers.com/ on the phone. I had sent him an email about 45 minutes ago and he had already called my shop to track me down to discuss payment options. He said the scraper will be built today and shipped out! Amazing service. I decided to order it today just incase it was going to be a long-lead item. Fat chance, with this kind of turnaround. If the rest of the rebuild can go like this order, I'll be thrilled.
Click here for more info on the crank scrapers...
https://rennlist.com/forums/924-931-944-951-968-forum/209369-new-924-944-968-performance-part-available-crank-scraper.html
07-22-2005, 06:47 PM
#14
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Yup, its got the 2 pc crossover. It was a factory update along the way. My 86 came to me with a 2 pc as well.
If the head is off, do the full deal IMHO. O-Ring it, rebuild, and if youre up for the money, new springs and such.
If the head is off, do the full deal IMHO. O-Ring it, rebuild, and if youre up for the money, new springs and such.
07-25-2005, 05:36 PM
#15
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
News report from the shop:
The head looks ok, it will be pressure checked. Bonus - it has had some porting done. I just hope it was by someone with a flowbench and some experience, rather than a monkey with a die grinder. Its kindof cool though, as the car comes apart more and more, I find more and more pluses! 2pc crossover, Tial WG, ported head... it goes on.
The bad news is #2 rod bearing is shot. Although this isn't necessarily all that bad, as I was strongly considering a bottom end rebuild whether it "needed" it or not. Now I know my money will be well spent. The walls are supposedly still in good shape, although if they can't find anything wrong with the head, I'll have to assume the #2 rings/wall is the reason for the high leakdown numbers.
I'll most likely do perp drilling, typical crank R&R including thrust surface check/refinishing, and then install the new crank scraper. We'll see if the pan is already baffled or not, theres a chance it will be.
Also, the head has been oringed, but the block still has a flat mounting surface. So the oring was just a single circle of extremely elevated pressure. I'll have them cut the groove into the block as is typically done w/ oringing.
Thats it for now. Will know more about the bottom end on Wednesday.
The head looks ok, it will be pressure checked. Bonus - it has had some porting done. I just hope it was by someone with a flowbench and some experience, rather than a monkey with a die grinder. Its kindof cool though, as the car comes apart more and more, I find more and more pluses! 2pc crossover, Tial WG, ported head... it goes on.
The bad news is #2 rod bearing is shot. Although this isn't necessarily all that bad, as I was strongly considering a bottom end rebuild whether it "needed" it or not. Now I know my money will be well spent. The walls are supposedly still in good shape, although if they can't find anything wrong with the head, I'll have to assume the #2 rings/wall is the reason for the high leakdown numbers.
I'll most likely do perp drilling, typical crank R&R including thrust surface check/refinishing, and then install the new crank scraper. We'll see if the pan is already baffled or not, theres a chance it will be.
Also, the head has been oringed, but the block still has a flat mounting surface. So the oring was just a single circle of extremely elevated pressure. I'll have them cut the groove into the block as is typically done w/ oringing.
Thats it for now. Will know more about the bottom end on Wednesday.