Bullwings

Hi, this is my first official thread post, and I really have a tough choice to make on my hands. I can either sell my 951 and get a '95 993 or, keep the 951 and pour more money into it.

First off, the question above. Which would make a better street legal track car? And by track car, I'm not talking full on hardcore gut the interior, no cat, racing seats/harness, slicks etc. etc. I'm thinking more along the lines of a car with around 300rwhp with a really good suspension setup that's agile and nimble in the corners. I'm not too concerned with ride quality, but I do plan to keep the nicer creature comforts such as AC, and stereo since it'll also be a weekend car. I already have a daily commuter so, that isn't an issue here.

I know that as far as straight line speed is concerned (not from a stop), the 951 definitely wins and is much much cheaper to get more power out of. Actually, right now I have an '86 951 (no LSD ) that's pushing about 280rwhp - It was dynoed at 307rwhp, but my cat is causing too much back pressure so we had to turn down the boost. I'm not that concerned with straight line speed though, I'm not looking for a quarter mile 10s car.

Back to the question on hand, if both cars had about 300rwhp (and i know it's easy to get 400+rwhp on the 951, relatively speaking in comparison to the 993), which would make a better weekend warrior track car? I know for autoX, the 993 would probably do better since it's naturally aspirated and due to the speeds generally seen at autoX course setups.

Also along those same lines, given the same amount of power and money not being concern would you rather have a turbo or a naturally aspirated car for track purposes? I know turbo cars are fun and exhilarating to drive, but that doesn't necessarily mean faster.

So, bang for the buck wise (not including the cost of each car), which would provide a more nimble, agile, and balanced platform for the track? I'm not asking any power questions since I know the 951 wins in that department, and I know that it's very expensive to get power out of the 993s. Also, keep in mind that I live in SoCal and passing emissions here sucks - they're all visual inspections with rolling dyno type setups.

Also which would be more reliable in that department, given all the proper care (i.e. not lugging the motor for 993s and being careful of premature carbon build up)?

Oh, and one last question, what does 'DE' stand for?

SD Porsche Fan

DE stands for 'Drivers Education'. When a pro takes you out on a track and helps you get the most of your car.

I don't know much about 993s other than they are the best looking 911 variant IMHO. Many prefer the 951 for it's 50/50 weight distribution and great handling.

aeronautica86

I personally think the 993 has been the best looking 911 yet, but looks isn't the main issue here. 993 is going to have a higher cost of entry and be more expensive to mod like you mentioned, so if money is ever an issue that is something to consider.

I haven't driven a 993 unfortunately and I know that they can be set up to be fantastic cars on the track, but it seems to me that the 993 would be more difficult to drive fast than the 951.

sawood12

What i've managed to gleen from similar discussions is that 993's are better under braking but wont have the straight line grunt of the 951. 993's were something like 280bhp (flywheel) off the production line and i'm not sure how much it would cost to uprate it to 300+ rwhp. I'd imagine it would be alot more expensive that with a 951. The 993's have bags of low end grunt with no lag.

Yes, 993's don't have 50/50 weight distribution but they have LSD's and bags of grip so don't be wrongly lead to beleive they are shabby in the handling department. Ultimately it depends what you want. If you are an occasional track day warrior like me who's after sheer thrills and enjoyment then I don't think you'll really be unhappy with either car - on balance both are fairly equal on track - they just achieve it in different ways. I'd buy the car based upon what you want for the street rather than the track as that is where it is going to spend most of it's time.

I quite fancy a 993 with KW suspension, RSR brakes and Ninemiester cylinder heads (350fwbhp) but you are looking at a significant spend for that little lot!

aben8057

I came across a similiar bridge not to long ago however it was between my 996 or 951. I ended going with the 951 because of the 50/50 weight distribution, LSD, cost, potential upgrades and if I damaged it, I wouldnt be AS upset as the 996. My main objective now is to upgrade the suspension but in the meantime, invest my money on seat time.

I love the lines of the 993 but due to budget reasons, I went with the 951. If I had additional funding would I go with the 993....yes.

jakery

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1997-...QQcmdZViewItem

I forget what he wants for this, but i remember it is very reasonable. Go all out ! ! !

I am a sworn 951 owner, the $$ to modify is very reasonable compared to the 933 from what i've seen. If i had the cash to play with a 993 i would, just to see what it was like, but it would take a lot to sway me away from my love of the 951/

Oddjob

Stock vs stock on the track, a 993 C2 will have about the same overall performance as a 944 TS. It does have a little more top end horsepower (270bhp in '95, 282 for '96-98) and the C2 weighs about the same as a Turbo S, so it will probably have a little more straightline pull than the 951S. But a 993 will cost close to $15-20k more than a 951S.

PCA Club Racing classifies the 993 a class up from the Turbo S, and in the same class as the Turbo Cup/Escort cars. So that also gives some perspective of potential performance when the two cars are allowed equal modifications/upgrades.

Not much you can do hp-wise to a 993 w/o spending big money. Open up the exhaust and get rid the cats is about it. That would probably get the car pretty close to 290-295 bhp, but to get 300 rwhp you would need some very trick tunning, and probably more than bolt-ons. Keep in mind, the Euro 993 RS was a 3.8 ltr motor with 300 bhp, and the 993 Cup Cars, also with a 3.8 motor were rated at 310 bhp.

The Bilstein PSS9 suspension system is a pretty good upgrade for the 993s. Of course, there are much more trick/expensive setups.

There are costs associated with building up a 951 to reliably run 300 rwhp on the track. Track use is significantly harder on a turbo, than street driving. So, just turning up the boost, can get you pretty close to that output figure, but the car will be prone to headgasket failures, and burned valves when pushed hard on the track. You will be much safer with 300 bhp, than 300 rwhp for track use.

ed devinney

+1 on Oddjob's comments. On track with my 944TS I run with 993s. 993 horsepower is expensive. That said, how much hp do you need to run well on track?

My 951 is down for next weekend's 3 day DE here, so I'm taking the 993 for the first time - ask me then :-)

clangjr

Get a 951, upgrade it, spend the difference of what you didn't spend on the 993 on some good driving instruction. HP means nothing if you can't carry the speed.
Chuck

sawood12

Or better still get a good stock 951 and invest your money in training and a second set of track wheels with semi-slicks. Good rubber is worth well over 50bhp on track easily and is a fraction of the cost. You can invest a stack of money upgrading your car but that doesn't necessarily you'll drive it any quicker.

Andrew Sweatenham (of Promax) is bloomin' impressive on track in his stock 951 with old tired suspension. His only mod is big blacks (with standard pads) and he trounces the field on his 17" rims with slicks. Seriously he just doesn't pass GT3RS's, he simply blows them away with the thing rolling and pitching all over the place. Of course having raced 944's in his past helps a little.

shiners780

A couple guys I know who track 993's had to upgrade the stock rear suspension due to (don't quote me on this) odd alignment changes during heavy braking due to the factory suspension geometry (?).

Can anyone verify/debunk this information, and is it something Bullwings should consider in his car search?

I do know they spent a lot of money "correcting" whatever it was they needed to "correct".

sweanders

Once you crash the car on the track (it will happen) it is up to you if you want to pay the repair bill for a 951 or a 993. Both are great for track, but different.

SD Porsche Fan

Oh man! That would be fun to see!

Anders - Love that quote about turbo lag!

fast951

I have been a PCA and BMWCA instructor for years. I also have an idea on what a 951 can do.
I personally prefer the 951 on the track, for the money there is nothing that comes close to the it. A nicely modified 951 putting down over 300rwhp will live on the track, race gas, extra oil cooler and good maintenance. The 993 will always have the "image" to go with it, but will not outperform a modified 951. To get 300rwhp out of a 993, it takes lots of work and maintenance will skyrocket. Both cars are capable, some things to consider:

- A dual purpose street/track car will always be a compromise. Once you start seriously tracking a car, the cosmetics will go down hill.
- Handling wise the 951 is more forgiving, but the 993 is not bad.
- Suspension setup and safety equipment would cost about the same for both cars. This is a must before performance mods.
- If you plan on racing, decide which is more competitive. Make the correct mods.
- Id you just want to attend track days and DEs, there is a good chance you will not be able to get insurance (many insurance companies are excluding DE events). When on the track, you have to understand that "it's not if you wreck, it's when you wreck". Things happen, can you afford walking away from a modified 993.
- Do you plan on maintaining your own car or have a shop handle the work? The older the 951 gets, fewer shops want to deal with them. 951 is more labor intensive than a 993, so down time if serious work is needed will be longer.
- How do you like it when 993 owners say "this water pumper is fast as hell" after you blow by them?
- Go to the track and talk to both 951 and 993 owners, more than likely they are both having a blast. It boils down to what you like, what you can afford. Unless you are a very experienced and super good driver, the chances are the driver is the limiting factor not the car. Either car and a good driver can be very fast.
- Depending on the organization hosting the event, you might be able to catch a ride with instructors. If possible take a ride in a 993 and a 951, you will get a feel for it.
- The 944S2 and 968 are also very good options for track use, not as much power but you will learn plenty. I think a Boxster with a 3.8L (997S) engine will be a blast on the track, I know it was fun on the street.
- A well setup and well moded 951 will walk away for a 993TT not just a 993.
- It's always cheaper to purchase a "good" used race car. The chances are you will find a very nice track ready 951 for around $20K (maybe less). A 993, try $45K+.
- If you have never driven on the track, attend a DE before you commit.
- How fast do you want to go $?

Bullwings

Thanks for all the replies. And, now that I know what 'DE' stands for, that's what I've done so far and plan to do more of in the future. I don't plan on any competitive racing anytime soon (read - next 8 years, also read - not enough money).

And as far as engine mods go on the 993, I know they're super expensive. As far as the guys in the 993 forum are concerned, the best you can do is light weight flywheel, and re-gearing the transmission, which is something like $6-7K if you want it done right. Chip and exhaust will get you around 12-15hp, and that's it. Apparently, to get around 300rwhp, you'd need a 3.8L rebuild to Cup specs. I was reading that $35K will get you to around 320rwhp. So, I'm thinking 300rwhp is probably unattainable with the current depth of my pockets.

Since I already have a 951 and it would probably be another $20k to get a 993 after selling the 951, it's probably a lot more economical to just keep the 951 and mod the suspension to my liking. I'd still be using street tires though since the car will double as a weekend car - I know there are some street tires with tread wear ratings of 200 that are pretty grippy.

So my question is this, is it hard to adjust to the turbo lag on the track? I've only driven N/A cars on the track and I'm kind of worried that the 951 will kick my butt. I'm also not that power hungry, which is why I was also considering the 993. My 951 dynoed about 280rwhp and just driving it around on the streets I can tell it is more than enough for my current skills on the track. I just really want a car that handles well and is fast and tight in the corners.

I'm not concerned with the maintenance since I've already setup a reputation with Vision and he's guaranteed me that he'll take my car.

I'm pretty much decided on keeping my 951 thanks to you guys. I was also thinking about crashing, and I know that I can walk away (maybe limp) from a 951, but a 993 would hurt me a lot more.

But really, is it tough to drive with the turbo lag?