Standalone EMS...?
02-20-2007, 09:03 AM
#16
Originally Posted by Raceboy
Knock sensor is just a safety device. And there's a difference in knock sensor receiver and a knock sensor receiver. Knock sensor is just a piezo-microphone that sends the signal to ECU or specialized devise and there's the most important thing: it has to know WHEN to act. Most of the stuff is just plain crap as it's not tuned to the knocking frequency of specific cylinder (has to a lot with the diameter and has to be calculated precicely). You don't want the device to pull the timing on hydraulic lifter noise (seen this many times) or not acting when actual knocking occurs (also seen that).
When tuning, ONLY viable device detecting knock is stethoscope. With that banjo-bolted onto the upper part of the block you can clearly hear when knocking begins and it doesn't get to hurt engine. By the time you hear it behind the wheel, it's usually too late: if it didn't kill the engine this time, it just won't survive it again.
And engine management that doesn't make use of intake temp sensor, is just crap. It must pull timing in pre-determined amount in user-defineable temps.
When tuning, ONLY viable device detecting knock is stethoscope. With that banjo-bolted onto the upper part of the block you can clearly hear when knocking begins and it doesn't get to hurt engine. By the time you hear it behind the wheel, it's usually too late: if it didn't kill the engine this time, it just won't survive it again.
And engine management that doesn't make use of intake temp sensor, is just crap. It must pull timing in pre-determined amount in user-defineable temps.
That is correct.
The Motronic system is VERY good.
A lot of turkeys don't realize HOW good it is.
I would NEVER use anything on a 951 that could not pull timing like the Motronic does.
I suppose if you are happy at weak power levels (400 HP), the Motec is fine for a turbo 951.
Doesn't even the SDS system have knock detection?
02-20-2007, 09:07 AM
#17
Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile
It's pretty hard to go wrong with a Tec-3.
This will seem to be elementary stuff to me.
Anyone who has pushed a 951 (especially at the track with high temps) will agree with me, I am sure.
This is a very basic necessity in 2007.
02-20-2007, 09:24 AM
#18
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A standalone has a target audience. In recent years the prices has come down; most systems (except for Motec) are in the same price range. Functionality, most well known systems, offer just about the same. SUPPORT is what makes or brakes any system. Purchasing the hardware, the wire loom is just part of the equation. You have the sensors, triggers and installation to be concerned with. Then you need to tune it! For a race car, not a big deal! For the street it's a different story. Whatever you get, make sure they have expereice with your car and are willing to help. For a TEC3, Chris White is your best bet.
As for those that comment on the Motronic, yes it is old, however it does everything it needs to do.
In reality there are VERY FEW people that really understand the Motronic (DME & KLR), I'm not just talking about the data tables. Soon enough you will know what I'm talking about
As for those that comment on the Motronic, yes it is old, however it does everything it needs to do.
In reality there are VERY FEW people that really understand the Motronic (DME & KLR), I'm not just talking about the data tables. Soon enough you will know what I'm talking about
02-20-2007, 09:50 AM
#20
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No using the Motec does not result is less power (unless you tune it poorly). On a dedicated race car requiring constant changes, a standalone makes sense especially if they cannot alter the Motronic system. As I stated above, a standalone has a target audience, race cars is one.
However, I'm yet to see a 951 making less HP because it's Motronic. A engine management is as good as the way it is programmed. For those wanting to go to a coilpack ot COP, we have done it already.
Ok, I don't want to turn this into a Standalone vs. Motronic thread... I gave my opinion, so let's move on.
However, I'm yet to see a 951 making less HP because it's Motronic. A engine management is as good as the way it is programmed. For those wanting to go to a coilpack ot COP, we have done it already.
Ok, I don't want to turn this into a Standalone vs. Motronic thread... I gave my opinion, so let's move on.
02-20-2007, 10:08 AM
#21
Three Wheelin'
Should have been more specific: stock Motronic is better than crappy standalones. But hey, I guess I am a bit naive presuming that no-one will buy crappy standalone 
02-20-2007, 10:14 AM
#22
I want to say that I OBSESS about the knock system on my Motronic.
This is how concerned I am with it.
John at Vitesse can corroborate this.
I meticulously, OFTEN (only because I am always modifying) check wiring and connections relating to KLR/DME interface and knock sensor.
This is my opinion of the knock system importance.
This is how concerned I am with it.
John at Vitesse can corroborate this.
I meticulously, OFTEN (only because I am always modifying) check wiring and connections relating to KLR/DME interface and knock sensor.
This is my opinion of the knock system importance.
02-20-2007, 11:50 AM
#23
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I have a Tec3r at this point I am very happy with its functionality, and it has many features and options that I will put to use as time goes on. I feel that a motronic system can not becomared to a good standalone past the point that they both controle an engine. Think of what a desk top computer was like in the 80's and think what they are like now, they both do the same thing but...
The most important thing is to go with a system you can suport from localy. I bought mine from Under Pressure Performance which is a 45 minute drive from my house. Not many people mention UPP on these boards when they talk about the Tec3 because there is a presence on these boards of other tec3 dealers but I feel for our cars and the tec3 it does not get better than UPP. Alot of things that people do on these boards and think is new or ground breaking is not and has already been done, many of these things by UPP.
The most important thing is to go with a system you can suport from localy. I bought mine from Under Pressure Performance which is a 45 minute drive from my house. Not many people mention UPP on these boards when they talk about the Tec3 because there is a presence on these boards of other tec3 dealers but I feel for our cars and the tec3 it does not get better than UPP. Alot of things that people do on these boards and think is new or ground breaking is not and has already been done, many of these things by UPP.
02-20-2007, 11:53 AM
#24
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Originally Posted by Tms951
Alot of things that people do on these boards and think is new or ground breaking is not and has already been done, many of these things by UPP.
02-20-2007, 12:05 PM
#25
Originally Posted by special tool
Does the TEC 3 have a knock-detection system?
02-20-2007, 12:11 PM
#26
Originally Posted by MPD47
Yes, it does. Tuning on the edge of knock is not the most intelligent thing IMO. The knock sensor should be a SECONDARY source. If you're tuning on the edge, you're tuning out your safety margin, one tank of bad gas, one slip of not paying attention, etc, BOOM. I'm less concerned with knock then the other engine variables. The great thing about my Tec3R setup is the new wiring harness and the technical support. I have recieved the absolute best support from Chris White for my Tec3R and John @ Vitesse for my old turbo. These guys are second to none.
I don't use it to tune.
I am talking about an ACTIVE system (such as the Motronic) that can retard ignition as needed, should something happen - like a failed fuel regulator, pump, vacuum line, injector, bad fuel, boost spike etc, etc., etc., etc.
02-20-2007, 12:20 PM
#27
Retard, advance, how many degrees, etc at what RPM threshold at what knock count? So yes, set it up however you like. Hell I bet you could set it to spray meth on one of the GPO's if it detected a certain knock count or higher. But I havent looked at that as I have no desire to run meth.
So yes, set it up however you like. Hell I bet you could set it to spray meth on one of the GPO's if it detected a certain knock count or higher. But I havent looked at that as I have no desire to run meth.
02-20-2007, 12:23 PM
#28
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Originally Posted by special tool
Oh, I know.
I don't use it to tune.
I am talking about an ACTIVE system (such as the Motronic) that can retard ignition as needed, should something happen - like a failed fuel regulator, pump, vacuum line, injector, bad fuel, boost spike etc, etc., etc., etc.
I don't use it to tune.
I am talking about an ACTIVE system (such as the Motronic) that can retard ignition as needed, should something happen - like a failed fuel regulator, pump, vacuum line, injector, bad fuel, boost spike etc, etc., etc., etc.
I do not run a knock sensor at this point because of things like solid lifters. I am considering the link knock moniter which is a series of LEDs that show knock voltage but do not interfear with the ECU. Another thing I could do with the Tec is set up the Knock sensor and a GPO to light up a LED at a certain voltage but not pull anything.
02-20-2007, 12:25 PM
#29
Originally Posted by Tms951
Yes, you can have the tec do pretty much what ever you want it to based on a deffined knock voltage, like have turn on water injection insted of pulling some thing like boost, timing or cut ignition. The tec has GPO (general out puts) that you can hook up to water ever you want ant be controled but knock voltage. The flexability of the Tec is unbelievable. It also has a built in over boost cut that cuts ignition at a predefined pressure.
I do not run a knock sensor at this point because of things like solid lifters. I am considering the link knock moniter which is a series of LEDs that show knock voltage but do not interfear with the ECU. Another thing I could do with the Tec is set up the Knock sensor and a GPO to light up a LED at a certain voltage but not pull anything.
I do not run a knock sensor at this point because of things like solid lifters. I am considering the link knock moniter which is a series of LEDs that show knock voltage but do not interfear with the ECU. Another thing I could do with the Tec is set up the Knock sensor and a GPO to light up a LED at a certain voltage but not pull anything.
02-20-2007, 12:31 PM
#30
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by thingo
So using a motec ems will result in less power than motronic?Why is it used for track cars, don't they need power?