tommo951

You need to speak to "Wackiewes" he has been through the same thought process you are going through now. He plumped for Custom Koni's but has used Ohlins and virtuially every other major bnrand if I read his post correctly

333pg333

Absolutely without doubt the KW's handle this requirement with flying colours. They are much better on the road than my former Mo30 setup and also much better at the track. I would go for the Variant 3 system for the daily driver that also does some club racing. This is what I do with my car and I've gone for the next level up, but this comes at an extra expense and my focus is for track rather than street.

Rich Sandor

Wow what a small world. I just got off the phone with Jared at HPA Motorsports (as per the number SoloRacer posted) and it turned out I've already met the guy in the past. He bought a 944 turbo out from under me a few years ago!!! LOL

So 40minutes later I'm convinced that KW is the way to go. I'll be selling the 968 and using some of the proceeds to fund the KW's and a summer's worth of DE's down in California!!!

RolexNJ

See you didn't even need to ask the question, isnt' that great. You posted your own question, but got your own answer with no help. Cheers and enjoy!

Rich Sandor

Well hey that's not entirely true.. if it wasn't for Soloracer posting that phone number, and the subsequent good words about KW from various posters, I might not have come to that conclusion!



here's to the best online car forum in the world!

RolexNJ

Well then he is the man, so give him some kinds of commision for helping you! J/K Good luck with them too.

whakiewes

Since you suggested that I make a view point for Richard, I will. For my suspension experience, it stands like this. I have tracked on Ohlins in a carbon fiber Elise and a Porsche GT3Cup, Penske in numerous 911's including a 400hp 3.8L 914 widebody race car, KW V3's in an HPA VW Jetta 2.8T, 600hp AWD Beetle, E30 M3, V1's in a Golf, KW 2(maybe 3-way) way race shocks in a Mini Cooper track car, Leda 2-ways in an E30 M3, and Bilsteins Escorts and Koni 2812's in my current 968. I have street driven Ohlins on an AWE/Stasis B5 S4, Penskes in a Viper and rode in a Corvette equipped, KW V3's on the cars said above, M030's in a 968 and an 88' 951S, Bilsteins and Koni's in my car. So to say that I have not experienced different suspensions would be a far cry from the truth. Do I consider myself an expert; long from it. Just like everyone on this forum most of what I know is from what I am told. The difference is that I sort the the BS that 90% of retailers throw up because of profit margins and sales numbers.

So without holding back, here are my honest suspension opinions. I had, drove probably 10k miles, beat the crap out of Bilstein Escort Cups (600/180; 545/212) with several different spring rates. They were stiff and felt very race car'ish. The 390/150 front shocks would have probably helped out a ton with the race car feeling, but in the end the struts were designed for Cup series racing which is where the belong. For my local driving and tracks, my front struts had a ton of bump steer which on the highway scared the quite a bit. The alignment was checked twice during the time, both in perfect specs. The struts just had too much valving, track and road. 1980's technology still being marketed. The top mount on my strut sheered right off of the body which left me with a nearly useless strut. Fortunately because Bilstein chooses to weld the tops, the break was perfect and it fit perfectly back in so a weld could be properly performed. I passed the struts on to a fellow rennlister for a good price. Step in 951 Koni's with Paragon coilover kit, 350lb springs. Very streetable, good performing coil over kit for the budget minded enthusiast. The NVH of the car decreased significantly while street performance (on-ramps/off-ramps) saw little decline. In the mean time I was shopping just about every vendor in regards to upgrading my suspension. Budget was set at $3000 +/-. My options included Penske 8100's, Koni 2812's, Ohlins 36 Series, Moton Clubsports, KW V3's or 2-way Race, or JRZ variants. The cool thing about suspensions is that if you shop around dealer markups, very nice suspensions can be had for good prices. A friend was selling his Koni 2812's from his Viper to replace with Penskes and offered me a good deal on $4000 struts. Since the valving was different, I had the 2812's rebuilt and purchased 2817's. This was a gamble as the 28 series is a rarely used or spoken about strut. Performanceshock.com out of California rebuilt the 2812's and sold the 2817's...I have spent probably 10hrs on the phone alone with the owner of the shop at no charge...try that with other shops.

So why did I go with Koni's over Ohlins and others? Well price aside since by the end I am only saving about $500, I had several options. I didn't consider much from Leda after calling Leda in the UK and getting no answers on anything. In short I was told the valving was built for our cars with tons of testing and tuning, and further information could be provided by my vendor. Very nice people, but not what I wanted after about 2hrs of trying to get answers (such as metal material, rust protection, adjustability, valving, support, rebuilding, etc). I am sure I could have gotten more answers out of Karl or others, but after hearing numerous horror stories of Ledas self destructing and no real racing background on the off the shelf dampers, I passed. Ohlins makes a coil over kit that bolts on to our cars, other than what Lindsey Racing sells. Uses a variant of the 36HRC as used on GT3 Cup cars. The problem I had with Ohlins was that one, the initial cost was going to be higher than I first anticipated after you add in coilover collars, springs, perches, custom valving, etc... It would have reached the peak of my feasible suspension budget without attending to bushings, camber plates, etc... The other downside was the cost to rebuild, often over $200, occasionally as high as $3-400 depending on how many parts need replacing. Penske makes a 5-way adjustable (3-way plus nitrogen tuning) 8100 series shock that retails for less than Koni, Ohlins, JRZ, etc...It's as good as the said products, and it would fit my budget. At the time though I couldn't find a competant rebuilder that would help, and the nitrogen tuning baffled me. Since I purchase the Koni's, I have answered all of my questions and if I had to do it again it would be a VERY hard choice. JRZ/Team Dynamics leak like pigs, so that was out of the question after talking to just a few racers since my car will see the street. KW's were the only real competition to the Koni's right before I pulled the trigger. The KW V3's are easiliy picked up in the US, but KW US is not known for its knowledge and I don't speak German, so I was limited in my options. Again no real racing background of the V3's, so I passed. 2-ways and 3-ways fit my budget but I could get no support or information to help me. People in the UK/Europe have a lot more support from KW which I think makes the choice to go V3's much easier. I probably would have had I been in that location, or atleast a race system.

When I am buying a part, any part for a car, I look at its pedigree. Something to show me its reputation is what I need. When I bought the Racers Edge rear shock mount the first question I asked is at what loads have you tested it and for how many miles. Second question was number of failures. Leda's 2-ways have no real racing credentials other than amateur club racing, and very little in the way of professional racing for its entire line of dampers. KW has proven itself and the UK and Germany, but nothing in the US...I would assume as a direct result of the product sales and services in the US. Ohlins racing pedigree is older than my grandfather, so pretty much the only barrier was money. Penskes too have a very extensive racing pedigree in the US, but my lack of knowledge and information stopped me from rolling out the franklins. Koni has easily as long of a race pedigree as the two above, but what sold me more than anything was the the basic valving technology was used in Ferrari's F1996-F2000, which you can just check the history of that. Wins in Leman's on the 28 series, ALMS series, and other endurance series proves the quality of the build. On top of the incredible US support and flexibility, I just couldn't find a reason to not purchase.

I am not one that is going to be happy with something that is off the shelf. Many are because of its ease of installation, support, and track record. The Escorts provide just this, and at $1500 brand new that are a good bargain. The JIC Cross offers even more than the Escorts at only a marginally higher price (if you choose to shop around at other places than Lindsey), which some of it can be deducted as they include camber plates. For someone that isn't happy with M030 but has a budget of $2000 or less, the Escorts or Koni 8611/3012 is a great combination. There are very knowledgable sales people who have tested, tried and trued, certain parts. The problem is there are better products available at the same or fractionally higher price. Once you have $10000, or maybe $100000 tied up into R&D though, your going to push the hell out of what you are working with before moving to another product; Marketing/Business/Economics 101! If my budget was $1000-$1500 you better bet I would be on Leda's or the Koni combo. Fortunately I was able to go a little higher and the difference is amazing. I passed on all the sales gimmicks, product pushing, and off the shelf products. To each their own.

Wes

Rich Sandor

Well said Wes. Thanks for taking the time to write all that. If you're ever up in my neck of the woods, the beers are on me.

You pretty much summed up my thoughts when considering shock suppliers. (Racing heritage and technology and tech support)

The main difference in my decision making process was that I have the advantage of a local KW representative for supply and tech assistance, who also runs a 944 turbo.

The one thing that still irks me though, is that you guys down stateside can get this stuff for sooooo much cheaper. By the time I pay for shipping, duty, and taxes, and exchange rate, I'm paying almost $3000cdn for a $1900usd set of Billy shocks from LR. You should see then why a quote of under $3400cdn (all-in!) is a wicked deal for a set of KW V3's.

Rich Sandor

I'm sure you're just letting him sarcasm get the better of you. Personally I think he's a wonderful addition to the forums. He's a guy with gobs and gobs of racing experience who is always online to give his opinion! Plus I love his racing avatars.. the current Senna one is particulary awsome.

whakiewes

Rich,

I have dealt directly with Marcel at HPA on several occasions. They are a great shop, and they know the KW line, especially for Volkswagens. They too didn't have much on the race shocks though...seems no one does unless you are overseas. As to your pricing, I am unsure why its so much more expensive. I have shipped on numerous occasions to Canada and just declare the value as $1 or so as to get by with customs. UPS insurance sucks so I don't even opt for it anymore. I don't see why you can't pick up a pair of $1900USD coilovers for $1900USD. $3000cnd is like what, $2500 or so?

Wes

Rich Sandor

Well, you've got the exchange rate, which is not bad right now, but could be better, and then you've got shipping, taxes, and duty. It's quite a lot after everything. You can try to cheat tax and duty at the border on a $5 or $10 trinket, but if you lie on a $4000 set of shocks, you will be charged with tax fraud, which is a federal offense!!!

You do have a point about researching a "second opinion" before spending money, but I think the rest is a bit excessive. No good will come of us degenerating to name calling, or worse, having a rennlister lambast me again for trying to keep the peace between other rennlisters.

RolexNJ

Thanks my friend, we "all" bring some type of value to Rennlist. Cheers.

whakiewes: I'm not going to even comment and ruin the thread. PM sent.

EDIT: Now, report sent. PMs, according to the Charter rules aren't allowed without dual consent.


Back to the program for Tommo......

wjk_glynn

Just as an FYI... a KW V3 setup is a smidge under $2,100 from my local distributor in CA.

Karl.

dand86951

Rich, I have an 86 951 also with 968 sway bars front and rear, and I have the Leda adjustable but not remote reservoir. I know there are many options but I can say the adjustability makes for a car that can be driven on the very rough Edmonton roads. Then when it comes time for the autox a check back in the logs for the right set up and a few clicks later it feels like a different car and my times are better as well.

For me temperature can be compensated for and road surfaces can be compensated for. Overall for the money I have been very pleased. Didn't try any of the others as they weren't in the budget and decided the Leda offered the adjustability I wanted for a street and track car.

Certainly the KW V3s would be great but the simpler Leda might give you what you want for a bit less.

tommo951

Wes,

I was never going to go with Koni's mate as I have had succesful litigation against them. But that is not a matter for a public forum.

Cheers
Tom