333pg333

So this can work in conjunction with things like Vitesse software and EMS? Apparently some EMS don't have any knock detection / protection? Motec being one of them. This seems crazy to me, but could this system be used together with other software or ems? If it does what it says I can't see a reason to not have it?

Rogue_Ant

Yes, it can work with VR Software, and aftermarket EMS. The main reason that people aren't utilizing it, is they don't understand the benefits over the KLR, and the simple fact that no-one wants to share any info on how to install the system. Although I'm using an MSD box, so my method of install is different, I plan on showing how simple it is to hook-up and use a superior knock detection/elimination system.
Right now, I'm just working on finishing up logging regular knock events with the KLR, so hopefully everyone can benefit.


Rogue

lleroyb

It looks like we are stuck without the reset. As far as I can tell the DC only models do not offer a reset. They have a response time of 1 millisecond vs. 500 milliseconds for the AC/DC models with the reset capability. I could be wrong, the documentation is a little vague as to the options available.

Lou

333pg333

Could you please just briefly outline the advantages over the stock KLR? I've mentioned this to a few people and they think that the KLR is the best thing for our cars. I'm sure the KLR is a well designed system but it is 20 yrs old.

Rogue_Ant

The J&S Safeguard was actually inspired by our KLR. John Pizzuto (owner/engineer of J&S) wanted to make something similar for use to keep his own turbocharged Fiat (IIRC) from detonating.
The safeguard is user adjustable in both its sensitivity and response to knock. A mode switch lets you select a maximum of either ten degrees or twenty degrees of knock retard. In the ten degree range, the unit retards one, two, or
three degrees per ping. Double that for the twenty degree range. The system is always trying to re-advance to stock timing. In the ten degree mode, it re-advances at the rate of one degree every twenty revolutions.
The biggest advantage to the J&S is its ability to only retard the cylinder that is knocking. Unlike the KLR which simply pulls timing on every cylinder when knock is detected, the J&S only pulls timing where it is needed. The second advantage is the J&S pulls timing in 1 or 2 degree increments, up to 10 or 20 degrees total respectively. This allows a larger margin for safety as the stock KLR can only pull a max of 6 degrees.

*********
*Cliff notes:

*J&S has individual cylinder knock/timing control.
*J&S can pull 10 or 20 degrees total timing for more safety.
*J&S control is much finer, pulling 1 or 2 degrees incremental ignition timing.

*********


Rogue

333pg333

Thanks Rogue for your time. It does sound like a good product. Any ideas on costs?

Rogue_Ant

Yep, I think I paid 399 for the unit, plus ~130 for the gauge.





So about $550 total including shipping. Although this was a few years ago (bought for a different project), so prices might have gone up since then.



Rogue

lleroyb

Well, I just got back from a quick trip to Idaho and back. The counter came up with about 80 counts for the trip. I am wondering if I got some bad gas because I could not get a count before, now I get half a dozen by putting my foot in it. Now I am going to temporarily mount it where I can easily see it, should have done that before I left but I was not really expecting any hits. I might add I would have no way of knowing the KLR was detecting knock without the counter. I am thinking of adding some octane booster and see what happens.

If I ever get another plug I am going to add the LED for blink codes next to the display.

Lou

Rogue_Ant

Guys, most of the knock counts that I get are high-timing low-load situations. I'm betting that many of you are getting these as well. Nothing to worry about really. I'm going to configure my software to log counts only if certain thresholds are passed (i.e. rpm ~2200 and TPS value).



Rogue

cpt_koolbeenz

I get <=10 counts per WOT run in 4th and 5th... My tune is not perfect, but in the ballpark. Running 15-16 PSI. I read somewhere that <10 was normal per WOT run... Is this true?

I don't really get any counts on part throttle at all or in WOT runs in 1-3 gear. It seems like this pin 15 is a pretty sensitive output.

Rogue_Ant

Chris, since I've switched to E85, I don't get a single count during WOT pulls... and the car feels ~25whp stronger then before. Certainly embarrassed a few Corvette owners around here


Rogue

cpt_koolbeenz

Sounds great! We are gonna have to talk about going back to the dyno... I wanna put my car on sometime soon. What are you up to these days anyway? How was training?

Rogue_Ant

Training was awesome! Right now I'm in North Carolina until Friday... we should get together this upcoming weekend. Got some cool stuff to do (Evo 8 brake setup on the Eclipse) - I will give you a call tomorrow. BTW I want to dyno again to quantify the change to E85.


Rogue

lleroyb

I give up, what is E85?

I have been trying different octane boosters and some race gas to keep the counts low. I hooked up a precision boost gage and everything looked good so I don't think anything is wrong.

I would so love to get my hands on a description of the how the KLR reacts to knock detection. I seem to see exactly ten counts too often for it to be a coincidence. Does the KLR pull timing after 10 counts?

Anybody out there with a bone stock car want to borrow the portable knock counter I built and tell us what happens? See the photo. The clamp is padded so it won't scratch the vent fins, it plugs in to the diagnositc socket above the DME. You don't even need to pull the carpet up.

Any help?

Lou

nize

lou, bob has a friend with a bone stock 951. maybe we can get him to make a few runs with the knock counter?