Rogue_Ant

Read the link I posted.... it shows the gains from doing nothing other then switching to E85 and retuning and the follow-up goes into being able to run (a lot) more boost, and thus more power....


Rogue

Trucho-951

Intake charge temp is one of the most critical parameters to keep in control for those interested in pushing the HP envelope. Because not only is it related to the maximum safe boost one can run (for at a given octane rating), but it also takes into account the ambient temperature. That is to say, that once we know the max. intake charge temp value for our engine, then for example, on hot days, we know by how much to reduce boost. It would be great if we could get some real world practical data from rennlisters. It's on my wish list to start recording mine, but then, I've got so much stuff on my wish list....

Rogue_Ant

Ok, I can get the data for intake charge air temp.... but how will I know if the KLR is pulling timing because of knock or not? If someone knows a wire to tap for logging knock then let me know!



Rogue

Jake951

That definitely makes sense. However, E85 (85% ethanol content) is a much different fuel than the 10% blends that are widely used now. None of our cars can run on E85. Also, as I said, I'm not sure what the real octane is at the pump for the 10% ethanol fuels. In my area the posted numbers for premium say 93 octane as they always have before ethanol was introduced. Is that the octane of the base gasoline before ethanol is added? Or is it the octane after ethanol is added (which means the base gasoline has a lower octane rating than 93)? I don't know the answer.

Rogue_Ant

Good question! But it wouldn't be hard to convert a 951 to run on E85 (I have thought about it), but limited places to refuel doesn't make it realistic (yet).


Rogue

hosrom_951

Duke: With E85, also expect 10-15% drop in fuel economy

95ONE

was going to build a methanol vehicle years ago. Never did because of the neccessary changes you need to undergo to make any gasoline vehicle compatible without swapping out seals and lines all the time. It's corrosive to aluminum. Sooo. It's not just a simple swap thing. Most injectors aren't compatible. / aluminum fuel lines/ heads / injector / Fuel seals. COMPLETELY new Fuel and ignitions maps . 4.7/1 Air fuel mixture. (Read TWICE + the amount of fuel needed) - Methanol, not ethanol - But at an octane rating of ONE BILLION. Sorry, Austin Powers flashback. It rivals C16 race fuel Costs with a much larger range of boost and timing. The AEM turbo Civic with the C30 NSX V6 motor had to REMOVE the ntercooler because the intake was freezing up from the fuel. And for reference, it had 15:1 compression at 40+ lbs of boost. (Extremely efficient Honda head keep in mind)
As far as a strictly race car point of view. I don't see many reasons to NOT spend the money and make the car compatible with the lesser than methanol, but far greater potential than stright pump gas E-85 at close to the same cost!

Race fuel at pump prices!

My .02

Rogue_Ant

Rogue

95ONE

yeah, I guess I couldn't hold back and gave the LONG answer : )

Rogue_Ant

Another advantage of E85 is ethanol is much less corrosive then methanol... so no need to flush lines,change seals, special pumps, ect.


Rogue

95ONE

Honestly, I was told otherwise, but because of my research of only Methanol, and what I have read about it, I didn't question. I'm curious now. It may not be AS corrosive, but still a threat to those parts non the less? Darn it. Now, I'm going to have to spend hours researching more on this fuel and it's requirements on the vehicle fuel system. Although I bet there's more out there on it!

Rogue_Ant

Seriously the links I posted earlier are a really good read....
Yes ethanol is still corrosive, but nothing like methanol... ethanol is simply grain alcohol, and if it wasn't mixed with gasoline you could drink it...


Rogue

95ONE

Well, it's still swaying me to Replace. Especially in any car built before 1988. Here are two interesting quotes from Wikipedia.org.

"The primary method used to convert non-fuel-injected cars is two-fold. First, any non-compatible rubber parts and gaskets and terne gas tanks and terne fuel lines are replaced. Then, it remains necessary to increase the fuel rate of flow by roughly 25% - 30%. This can be accomplished in one of several different ways, depending on the specific details of the fueling system. In the early 80's auto makers were required to make vehicles ethanol compatible, so most new vehicles will handle E85 with no problem. If a car is converted though, the ethanol will clean out the gunk left over from the gasoline and plug the fuel filter. The fuel filter needs to be replaced after about 600 miles."

And Good Stuff about Racing.

"Power output and usage in Racing
E85 has been repeatedly shown to produce more power than a comparable gasoline fuel, especially in engines that need high octane fuels to avoid detonation.[12] Ford Motor Company found that power typically increased approximately 5% with the switch to E85 [13]. Researchers working on the equivalent of E85 fuel for general aviation aircraft AGE-85 have seen the same results with an aircraft engine jumping from 600 hp on conventional 100LL AV gas to 650 hp on the AGE-85. Recorded power increases range from 5% - 9% depending on the engine. [14][15]

Due to pressure to remove leaded fuel even from racing environments, several racing organizations are looking at ethanol or E85 fuels as suitable alternative fuels for high performance race engines.

In 2006, the "National Street Car Association" is adopting E85 as an approved fuel for both their American Muscle Car and Street Machine eliminator racing classes.

The National Hot Rod Association (NHRA) currently allows ethanol as an approved fuel in several of its racing classes. NHRA approved ethanol is allowed in their bracket classes, Hotrod, Modified, ProFWD, and ProRWD classes to name some of the more popular. At this time NHRA has not announced any plans to include E85 as an approved fuel in the classes that are currently limited to "pump fuels".

The Indy Racing League is likewise moving to ethanol based fuels in 2006, with 10% ethanol 90% methanol fuel blend, and switching to a 100% ethanol fuel in the 2007 racing season."

951Boost

John, two questions;

1) What would you consider maximum safe EGT's for a 951? (I know, plenty of info posted on this but I would like to hear it from "The Man".

2) How is that knock monitor coming?

DFASTEST951

I'm so glad this thread was brought up. I used my Dad's Isuzu Trooper to go cut the lawn on one of my houses. I had to put $20 bucks of gas into it and after a few minutes of driving, I actually noticed it responding quicker and seemingly to run smoother. Didn't think much of it but on the way back I went past the gas station and saw the sign, "E85 sold here...105 octane". This thing was used to regular 87. This was a big jump. I had no idea it was 105 octane.

Here is my question. If it's 105 octane and it was coming from the regular 87 octane rated pump, what is, if there is any, difference in octane if you choose the 89 or 93 octane. Or are they all just replaced with standard 105 octane rated E85?

Also, everyone is going back and forth on pros and cons. I can buy 100 at the pump here but 105 sounds a lot better at a much cheaper price. Should I do it or not?