M3 Upgrades vs. 951
#31
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Originally Posted by Fishey
P.S. The rods are not the weak link of the E36M3 untill you are far far far over 400whp.... The weak link is the compression ratio. This can be dealt with cheaper then pistons by just getting a thicker headgasket. The headgasket trick works till about 22psi then its time for internals.
Originally Posted by RogueM3
Furthermore, the rods have a hard time handling prolonged 20+ psi runs. Most recently someone bent a rod on a bone-stock S52 pushing 23psi with methanol and conservative tuning for the fuel. I wouldnt feel safe running more than 18psi for any extended period of time with stock rods...at that level I would worry about my HG slightly as well.
500whp with just an MLS gasket and the usual turbo stuff is FINE on an S52
![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
#32
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
What really seems to be needed here is a clear description of your intended use of this “super-car”.
If it is going to be a street car, then well, remember, the Maximum Speed Limit on most U.S. highways is 70 MPH, so going HP crazy or suspension crazy does not make much sense.
If the intent is illegal street racing, then go for the highest HP car, because suspension mods won’t really be necessary unless it also involves zig-zagging in and out of traffic.
If the car is meant to be tracked, then go for the lighter of these two German cars and take the money that is currently budgeted for additional mods and instead spend it in on driver training (racing classes).
If it is intended on being a boulevard cruiser, then why not get the prettiest one, oh yeah, with plenty of shinny stuff under the hood.
If it is going to be a street car, then well, remember, the Maximum Speed Limit on most U.S. highways is 70 MPH, so going HP crazy or suspension crazy does not make much sense.
If the intent is illegal street racing, then go for the highest HP car, because suspension mods won’t really be necessary unless it also involves zig-zagging in and out of traffic.
If the car is meant to be tracked, then go for the lighter of these two German cars and take the money that is currently budgeted for additional mods and instead spend it in on driver training (racing classes).
If it is intended on being a boulevard cruiser, then why not get the prettiest one, oh yeah, with plenty of shinny stuff under the hood.
#33
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Originally Posted by George D
My point here is that the M3 is a GREAT NA car. One of the best, but you will never get the reliability at 400wheel hp like you will with a really clean 951.
George
George
#34
Pro
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Originally Posted by Fishey
You don't know alot about his car to think that he is only making at most 375whp. There is big diffrence between his car and a stage 2 AA tuning car.
![Wink](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
Originally Posted by MPD47
Actually the car you are refering to was pushing 704whp. On stock internals minus the MLS gasket, before it bent a rod. It was run for MONTHS at the 500+whp range.
500whp with just an MLS gasket and the usual turbo stuff is FINE on an S52
500whp with just an MLS gasket and the usual turbo stuff is FINE on an S52
The S52 and M52 are different motors with different rods, crank, stroke, compression, etc. Furthermore, the M52 has more meat between the cylinders, which means more surface area with which the HG can connect. (.87 vs. .85)
Ulysses' 2.8 wasnt really run for months at the 635rwhp that he was claiming, as much of that time was downtime where the car wouldnt be driven for atleast a month at a time (like when he was waiting for the PPF manifolds, TB, etc) Those numbers were also on 110 race gas...so its not exactly a daily-driveable setup, if it is it would cost major $$ for gas alone.
There hasnt been anyone to test the limits of the S52 with a .140 HG as of yet. Someone (Radowski) did bend a rod, as I mentioned, in their S52 running 23psi on methanol, but that was with the stock HG.
Thanks again to everyone else for all of the comments...please keep them coming..the more the merrier.
![jumper](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/jumper.gif)
#36
Nordschleife Master
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Originally Posted by RogueM3
As far as I knew, he was running essentially a Stage 2 kit, and had the tuning from AA for their stage 2 kit...What more is there to know?
What all is so different between their kit and his (I know he has a different turbo and a different ebay intercooler..)
![Wink](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
Also, his turbo is a pretty mean 60-1... Also his intercooler is sweet! $150 and it works great!
#37
Banned
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Both cars are very capable. If you choose the 951 route your problem will be finding a good example.(not many around) I have met George from ICS and Dyno my car at his shop. He told me It would cost 40k to do a proper turbo upgrade to the M3. Including the price of the car. I have spent at least 15k in upgrades on my 951. I have to say that I'm very pleased with it now but I started with a very good example with 49k miles. There not exactly very cheap to modd or maintain if they are falling apart. The truth is they need work to get them reliable at 400+ whp. Your best bet is to find one thats ready. I have seen some nice one's for around 15 to 18k. Most are high mileage beaters that have bin restored. Good ones with low mileage are really hard to find and if you do find one. They demand a premium.
#38
Nordschleife Master
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Hmm this is hard decisions... Your M3 is obviously a very sweet car and a turbo kit would really make it complete. On a 951 you would want at least $10 in parts before you're satisfied (IMHO).
I'm currently at about $25k+ in parts any my 951 doesn't even roll without assistance
![Confused](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/confused.gif)
But if you get the 951, what are your goals? If you keep the M3, I suppose it's not as important to have the 951 in mint condition?
Your current M3 seems like a beautiful street/autox/track/fun combo. Getting a 951 and turning it into the same doesn't make sense?
I'm currently at about $25k+ in parts any my 951 doesn't even roll without assistance
![hiha](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/roflmao.gif)
![Confused](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/confused.gif)
But if you get the 951, what are your goals? If you keep the M3, I suppose it's not as important to have the 951 in mint condition?
Your current M3 seems like a beautiful street/autox/track/fun combo. Getting a 951 and turning it into the same doesn't make sense?
#39
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 1,596
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Originally Posted by George D
I give up. Too many folks that don't have the experience to back up their statements. Good luck findig the car you are looking for.
![Wink](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
The 951, setup properly, is a menace on that track that not many cars can touch. All I'm saying is, I personally prefer a properly setup E36 M3 at the track, it inspires much more confidence, and confidence gives you consistency, and more room to work with on the track when having some fun with other cars. At any rate, both cars with stupid power and sorted out suspension, it comes down to the driver for laptimes more than anything.
#40
Pro
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Originally Posted by MPD47
Bah, so I got them confused, so sue me. ![Wink](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
![Wink](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
![Cheers](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/beerchug.gif)
Originally Posted by jimbo1111
Both cars are very capable. If you choose the 951 route your problem will be finding a good example.(not many around)
[QUOTE=jimbo1111]The truth is they need work to get them reliable at 400+ whp. Your best bet is to find one thats ready. I have seen some nice one's for around 15 to 18k. Most are high mileage beaters that have bin restored. Good ones with low mileage are really hard to find and if you do find one. They demand a premium.[/QUOTE}
Im not terribly interested in finding an absolute MINT example, in fact that would allow me to not be so terribly **** about it (as I am about the M3)...however, I would want to find the best compromise between price,
condition, and pre-existing mods.
Originally Posted by Duke
But if you get the 951, what are your goals? If you keep the M3, I suppose it's not as important to have the 951 in mint condition?
Originally Posted by duke
Your current M3 seems like a beautiful street/autox/track/fun combo. Getting a 951 and turning it into the same doesn't make sense?
![Stick Out Tongue](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
The 951 wouldnt be to have a track toy, but it would be to have an all-around car that would be fun to modify, yet that wouldnt need to be in the garage on anything but the sunniest of days (like the M3 is..sort of)
Where I stand now is that the M3 would be sweet with 400whp (IMO), but it would still just be 1 toy. The 951 would be an added toy, and although I dont have an abundance of money, I love researching and spending my hard-earned money on mods that I can appreciate and feel.
Where I worry a little is that the M3 will always have the 250whp NA that I am making now, while the 951 might easily surpass it in power (300whp+) and make me want to drive it more...
![order](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/order.gif)
I am loving the opinions thus far...Its good to get other's opinions on the matter. Please keep them coming.
#41
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Originally Posted by RogueM3
Yeah, I thought it would be fun to give you a hard time...as soon as you get the S38 build back underway, you need to post pics in the FI section. ![Cheers](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/beerchug.gif)
![Cheers](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/beerchug.gif)
![hiha](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/roflmao.gif)
#42
Pro
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Originally Posted by MPD47
I dont own anything I'd want to put it in.
![Stick Out Tongue](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
Whats the current status of your 951? I remember you had had some overheating and HG issues...(I am pretty sure it was after your road trips this summer)
#43
Nordschleife Master
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Originally Posted by RogueM3
coughE30cough
![Stick Out Tongue](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
![Stick Out Tongue](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
You beemer guys need to figure something new out to put those crazy engines in!!
But I suppose every other chassi is too expensive for most.
Personally I find the idea of a turbocharged 130i pretty sweet
![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
#45
Drifting
![Default](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
The new 335 twin turbo from BMW is going to be a killer engine. BMW makes one of the best inline six engines and they won't spare much in this new turbo powerplant. You can bet that the suspension, brakes, and drivetrain will be stout and capable of much more power.
This is probably going to be one of their best selling cars for the money. With a little tuning this beast will keep the new V8 M3 in check.
This is the first new product from BMW that I'm actually excited about. Euro delivery?! We'll see after a romp when one hits town.
George
This is probably going to be one of their best selling cars for the money. With a little tuning this beast will keep the new V8 M3 in check.
This is the first new product from BMW that I'm actually excited about. Euro delivery?! We'll see after a romp when one hits town.
George