Fishey

Build your own turbokit for the M3.... Its cheaper (5k and faster)...

Here is a car I built along with the owner (S0nik) trey.
http://trey.shiftbutton.com/m3/noises.wmv


P.S. The rods are not the weak link of the E36M3 untill you are far far far over 400whp.... The weak link is the compression ratio. This can be dealt with cheaper then pistons by just getting a thicker headgasket. The headgasket trick works till about 22psi then its time for internals.

RogueM3

I dont believe Trey has ever dynoed that car, and while it is nice, he essentially has an AA Stage 2 kit (though with a T60-1, as opposed to their 20g)..so he is more than likely not making more than 375rwhp. Also, the $8k mark would involve a perfect tune with rock solid AFRs and 0 headaches, unlike the custom fabrication route...though a DIY project like that would be nice.
I wasnt talking about the rods being a weak link at 400rwhp, I was referring to special tool's comments about 800rwhp +.

A Cometic gasket is nice, and can give a solid 8.5:1 comp ration (if going with the .140 gasket), but some have decided its not able to hold in excess of 20+ psi with any certainty. Thats the reason many guys are looking into pyramid rings now.

Furthermore, the rods have a hard time handling prolonged 20+ psi runs. Most recently someone bent a rod on a bone-stock S52 pushing 23psi with methanol and conservative tuning for the fuel. I wouldnt feel safe running more than 18psi for any extended period of time with stock rods...at that level I would worry about my HG slightly as well.

This is all moot, however, as I would be buying a kit and pushing anywhere between 400rwhp and 450rwhp. Ive been a part of the FI BMW scene since 2002, yet have never had the funds until now (having been a student) to ever actually join their ranks. I was there when 500rwhp seemed like a big deal, and am still here now that 1000rwhp is the current big dog.

rage2

You don't need crazy boost to make 400+whp. The secret is to improve top end breathing, then add FI. Here's the S/C M3 I helped build, featured in Performance BMW mag a few yrs ago.

http://www.rage2.com/project01.htm

415whp at 7.5psi. The only internal change was with the pistons, upgraded to Weisco pistons when we were getting blowby on the stock block at 370whp mark and gave a lower compression ratio. A stronger headgasket was put in too. The car is bulletproof.

Much like modding a 951, it's simple and basic. Injectors, turbo or S/C, aftercooler, and standalone EFI. My 951 was WAY faster than the S/C M3 even though the M3 laid down 10whp more, mostly because of weight. I prefer driving the M3 more, it's a much more "tight" car and way more comfortable. Of course there was a good 10 years of newer engineering on the M3.

RennenFlamme

951 for the win! you'll start modding it and soon enough youll have a crazy car. nice ///M, love the color. think i've seen you on bimmerforums?

George D

I'll chip in here, as I've owned both. My 97 M3 sedan was outocrossed and driven at DE events. A VERY well handling car. One of the best out of the box. Prior to the M3 I had an 89 951. I sold the 951 because I thought I could live with a sports sedan, as I have kids and wanted to try two cars. I missed the turbo so much that I then went to an EVO. The EVO was fast as hell with mods, but I missed the German engineering and high speed design.

You will never get an M3 turbo to run as well as a modded 951 under racing conditions. I know it's done, but NOT for 8K. You will have a fast car, but the engine will require building, the tranny will require building, the clutch will need to be replaced, the brakes will need to be replaced, I could go on, but you know what I mean.

My 89 951 hits 430 wheel hp with a stock 2.5 bottom end and will do this all day at the track. My brakes are upgraded to big reds, but the stock 89 928GTS brakes are awesome out of the box.

My point here is that the M3 is a GREAT NA car. One of the best, but you will never get the reliability at 400wheel hp like you will with a really clean 951.

I've seen the blown M3's in action, and 8K is just the beginning when adding pressure to 400 hp at the wheels.

My 2cents tells you to get a clean 88 or 89 951S that is modified by a considerate previous owner.

Good luck.

George

RogueM3

Sweet looking vert. The power figures are quite different when comparing SC to Turbo applications: As guys are pushing 12-13psi on stock compression and HG with Vortech kits, whereas 9psi is the generally accepted limit for Turbod cars with the stock compression and HG.

The most impressive SC kit at the moment, is a guy in CA running 91octane and 12psi on a Cometic HG (though maintaining the stock Compression) and a TEC3R pushing 450whp.

Thus far, the most impressive run on an turbocharged S52 with simply a HG is ~630whp...though that was lowered compression.

I can understand the 951 feeling faster on account of weight, as even stripped an E36 will weigh in at 2750 or so, and in street trim mine weighs 3100. Im surprised to hear you say that the M3 feels tighter, though. I always thought the 951 was supposed to be crazy-responsive and tight..a strong resemblance to the M3 feel. I think the M3 is incredibly tight, and assumed the 951 would feel about the same after some coilovers and sways..(look at me already planning upgrades.. )
Thanks for the compliments. I do frequent bimmerforums, where my name is 95RogueM3.
Well, in order to have a well-sorted turbo M3, I wouldnt necessarily need to build the tranny (until 800whp or so), the engine would be fine with just a HG (until 500rwhp or so) and I already have a 4-wheel Brembo kit...

However, I do understand where you are coming from in that the 951 was born with boost and handles it better, whereas my M3 is meant to be NA, and therefore will have different mannerisms under boost. In fact, I know of one M3 owner who had the Stg. 2 turbo kit, and sold it on account of his feeling that the car just wasnt meant for 400+whp. Others dont seem to mind, and this was one isolated incident, but it is the opinion of one guy.
Definitely.

Thanks..that sounds like the best plan of action. Buying a pre-modded car is totally key, so long as it is modified in the same manner in which I would have done.

Please keep the advice/comments coming.

George D

Quick story: The BMW guys run with us at the PCA DE events. Some of my friends are like me, they want to be a surprise, and others want the newest, latest, most expensive Porsche or BMW. Ego I suppose, but my ego is definately there too. One of my best friends has a 2003 M3. He has driven all my past cars and loved them. The EVO was hard for him because of the wing and such. I've got to say I completly agreed, as we are in our early 40's. I got pulled over all the time in that car. Even when just crusing with a tie on going to my office. He is a partner in an an anesthesiology group here in Tucson. I spank him all the time in my 951. He is now buying a newer Carrera GT or S and thinks he has a chance. He just doesn't understand that if he is ever getting something that might get in front, I'm just going to make my car faster. EGO!!! Difference is that my car cost what the sales tax and such is going to be on his new ride. He hates this, but he has to have the newest stuff. I thank him for providing new clean cars for us financially smarter racers, as I've rolled my sports car money over and over again purchasing smokin deals from caring previous owners. I say, "Let someone else sort all the mods out and then give me their car for a fraction of what they spent." I'll then take it to the next level.

Good luck finding a good 951. Purchase a S. There are awesome 87-88 models that have suspension work that make them better than a stock S. So, just find the right car. You will know when you start driving them. If you were close to Tucson, AZ you could drive mine and use this as a benchmark.

The 951 is my favorite turbo. I don't know why, it just is. It's like that girlfriend that you never forgot about. Luckily, for my marriage, it's just a car and I get to keep her too!

George

rage2

Both cars with full suspension work, the M3 feels WAY tighter and much more accurate at the track. Not to mention the M3 is a lot more comfortable with track suspension than the 951.

George D

This is partially accurate. The tighter feeling is primarily in the steering. BMW gets this down better than anyone in the business. Once you get used to the 951 with proper suspension work, it handles very well. With proper camber, the car settles in a sweeper better than my M3 did, and I had the sedan which was and is the better track car.

I was never talking about comfort, nor do I really care. Both cars with full race suspensions are uncomfortable as compared to my daily driven LS430.

The point I was attemption to make is that the 951 cars are one of the best bangs for the money I've ever encountered. My car is approching 18 years old and still can perform as well as anything out there.

The M3 is the BEST 5 passenger auto out of the box that exists on the market today. Others come close, but once you drive them, (CL55 AMG, na s4, CTSV, etc.) you would probably agree.

Trust me, you can make a 951 compliant with the right suspension setup. It will never have the steering feel of the M3, but that doesn't make it a runner-up when times are being recorded.

George

ninefiveone

I love the "you can take 8K and make a 400rwhp 951, don't worry about the suspension, etc" type comments.... It would take 8k just to get a typical 951 into the kind of shape your M3 is in. Probably more.

It's M3 all the way. it's a better handling car stock, and it's a better handling car modified. I see as many big hp M3's at the track as I do 951 and they don't break down any more frequently than the 951's.

And the biggest reason of all? Your M3 is ready to go. Buy a 951 and you'll spend 1-2 years chasing down the types of issues you've already solved in the M3.

George D

I give up. Too many folks that don't have the experience to back up their statements. Good luck findig the car you are looking for.

George

macnewma

M3 Turbo - just add turbo and you are where you want to be
951S - find a nicely modded one for around $12-14k and put $3-5k in updates/maintenance and you are where you want to be

If you really want a 944 Turbo then buy one. If you are looking for a good handling car that do 300-400whp, but you aren't necessarily a 944 Turbo fan, you might look at the following:

Evo (with a tune, fuel pump and exhaust for ~$700 you can get to around 300 awhp)
C5 (cams and a tune and you are at ~350-400whp NA)

Each one of these will more reliably reach these higher horsepower levels and they are all newer cars. It really depends on what you want.

George D

You do not find 400wheel hp E36 M3's at the track with no issues that have just 8K in their cars. My 97 M3 Sedan needed brakes so bad when I purchased it, they would fade much faster than a stock 89 951 setup. This upgrade cost me over $2000 in the M3.

I, on the other hand, find 951S cars with just chips, MAF, adj FP, test and down pipe, decent pads, and sticky tires doing very well at the track with the stock S suspension and brakes. If you were to add 8K to a clean car, it would do well at the track and street in it's class. An E36 M3 would see it's *** more often than not with comparable drivers and an area that lets both cars get out of second gear. On a long straight the turbo will briskly walk away.

Remember, opinions are like *** holes, everyone has one!

G

George D

I am a tad biased, as I track a 951. My car has close to $40,000 in it over the years. Some done by the previous owner for ten years and some by me. My car is NOT stock with the exception of the interior front seats, carpet, bottom end 2.5 and paint. Almost everything else has been upgraded. The car would cost someone close to $50K to replicate as it sits in my garage. With this kind of money, you could have a e36 M3 that would give me fits.

I just wanted to be clean in this discussion, as my 951 is badass, but it some money and sorting out to get it there.

G

Fishey

You don't know alot about his car to think that he is only making at most 375whp. There is big diffrence between his car and a stage 2 AA tuning car.