MichelleJD

John:
I may soon be in the market for a new turbo (checking to see if mine can be rebuilt). What would a stage 2 turbo and chips run me? I have an ARC-II and Ford MAF already in place.

danny951

okay, you guys have made some good points, and I must admit that I am somewhat playing devil's advocate here. I think a lot of rennlisters have some of these questions that I have asked because I see threads like this off and on. Please don't think I'm trying to start something that I'm not. About releasing more info on your turbos though -- you've obviously made quite a bit of improvement to your turbos that takes a lot of time to do per turbo. I mean I understand you aren't just buying turbos and shipping them out at a profit, I never thought that. So, even if you gave some insight into what turbo you were starting with, it's not like someone else could come behind you and copy your work without putting in a lot of their own time and research to develop the modifications that you have developed, but it would help us know more of what we are buying. Are we getting a #6 type hot side or is it bigger? Are these DBB turbos? If you've already released that info, I'm sorry I missed it. If not, I understand the reasoning for keeping it all secret, but I would bet there are some potential customers who would be more willing to put the money down with some more information.

Like I said before, I really do thank you for what you bring to the table. You obviously have some amazing products. No hard feelings here. I just am asking the questions that others are probably afraid to ask.

Regards,

Bri Bro

I for one don't like vendor bashing or boosting. It really doesn’t support the free flow of thought about development. That said, do the R&D yourself for what you want, lots of links to look at…. or pay the price of getting a product that has been tested and pay the price for a developed product.

I agree, lots of folks wonder why it costs so much for the turbo upgrades.

SoloRacer

The question I have is if the turbo performs as promised or indicated what difference does it make to you what the specs are? Say for example he says "it's a T04E 60-1, P-Trim 1.00 A/R" what good does that do you? The only reason I could see for you wanting to know is to get into a "well I can get the same turbo for less $$$ and you are ripping us off" argument and then try make him justify the cost of his kit. Either that or you believe he does nothing at all and that there is another off the shelf turbo that will cost less and perform the same. The real answer is really simple actually. If you think you aren't going to get value for the money don't buy the kit. Do I think the kit is overpriced? Compared to kits I can get for my 93 RX7 I would say yes and no. HKS sells several kits for my RX7 and one costs $3000 and another costs $6000. They include wastegates and downpipes that aren't in John's kits but they don't include the MAF, Piggy Back or chips that he gives you. So what is worth more?

Now if you are interested in a do it yourself kit on the cheap start testing turbos and posting the results. That is what the RX7 guys are doing. They post specs, dyno sheets, set up's, etc. for others to see and copy if they wish. Some set ups work good and other don't. Over time they have built a good sample of how certain turbos work on the rotary engine. I can tell you though that HKS hasn't posted anything saying what they do to their turbos and I wouldn't expect them to. So why should John or any other vendor here? Instead of asking him what he does why not do some research, pick a turbo with a map that you think looks like a good match and give a go then report back here with your findings? It's what the RX7 guys do - although they tend to be much more "hands on" than the Porsche crowd.

Now as for if John's turbos are ball bearing I'm pretty sure they are not. I have a Vitesse Stage III and if I compare it to a ball bearing GT35 that is on a friends RX7 I notice that I can hear his turbo still spinning well after the car is shut off. Not true with my Stage III. I believe that someone here with a GT35 on a 951 has a video showing this effect.

I will say one last thing about my Vitesse Stage III though. At first I was really dissappointed with the performance when compared to my K27/8 - both seat of the pants and dyno sheets. A big part of my dissapointment came from the sensationalizing of what the turbo will do by members posting dyno sheets with huge numbers on them - numbers that 99% of us will never achieve or are not practical. Because of the huge difference between those sheets and the ones for my K27/8 I was expecting a monumental change in how my car would pull with the new turbo. To John's credit though he was always up front with what to realistically expect and my results proved him correct. He never once mislead me or tried to sell me on something that wasn't true. My only request would be that on the big power dynos it be emphasized that this should not be the expected result on a stock 2.5 engine using pump gas (what 99% of us run).

Porschefile

Personally, I don't think you can go wrong either way. John provides great turbo kits for someone that doesn't want to go through the hassle of trying to properly size a turbo to meet the your own goals. He also has great customer service, and I have purchased some parts through him with much satisfaction. A friend of mine has a stage3, and I have to say it performs excellent! I still can't believe how quick spooling it is considering it's ultimately capable of well over 500rwhp.

I am the type that likes to understand the way things function. I am sure there are others here like that (sounds like you are Danny951). The "stage" upgrades really aren't for me as I like to know the specs behind a product. Call me picky but, things like turbochargers and cams play a huge role in determining the powerband of a car, and I just can't bring myself to buy such vital components of a car without knowing their specs. It would be nice to know some basics such as whether a certain turbo is a gt30 or gt35 series, what exhaust housing size it has, what duration/lift a certain cam has, etc. Though, there are enough dynos and proof from users of John's systems that you can't go wrong with them.

danny951

I am not sure if you are saying that I am vendor bashing or not. I promise you that is not my intent. I know that message boards (anything written for that matter) can be easily misconstrued, so I want to be clear that I am not bashing John or his methods. He has done the research and is perfectly entitled to sell his products the way he sees fit.

The reason I am trying to find out as much information as I can is simple. I am a consumer, one who plans to spend quite a bit of money on some products. I think all of you browse these forums in an effort to get as much info as you can before making a decision about what you plan to do and where to spend your money. That being said, Johns products are very appealing, but I am damn sure going to spend some effort researching for myself by talking to other owners what products will bring me to my own goals regarding reliability, performance and of course cost. And before you say "you get what you pay for", may I ask you why you bought a 951? I would be willing to bet price of entry had something to do with it

Tom M'Guinn

The free market rewards those who sell things people want. It would be a skimpy marketplace indeed if all things were sold at cost plus a small margin.

I bought Guru chips, then paid three times as much for Vitesse chips (the marginal cost of which is maybe $4 for the chip itself). I'd do it again.

Hermes sells a purse (a purse!) for $10,000 -- and there is a 2 year waiting list to get it.

DDP

Special Tool- I am not challenging you here but I am curious how you came to this conclusion? Experience with GT30s on the 951 on the track? I hear what Chris White has said and I know he has had first hand experience but I am curious why you say so? I like to have more than just one opinion, even if it is Chris White.

BTW- John, will be running the VS2 kit soon, should be fun!

Crazy Eddie

AAhhh... so your looking into a purse ha ....I wonder who that's for

tconn

I don't understand why I have to pay Porsche prices for my parts, why can't
I buy them at Chevy prices?

Hmm.. I could have bought a 20 year old camaro for alot less and modified it for alot less and I just know it would have been as good as my 951. Dang
why didn't I think of this before?

Why can't I buy a new Porsche for the cost of a nissan, mazda, etc. ?
They are all just metal, plastic rubber etc. ?


You can't buy high quality at Walmart prices!!

fast951

Vitesse now offers an entry level turbos, they are the off the shelf turbos. price of entry $1250! Why more expensive than other places? Well some mods MUST be done for the turbo to live on the 951.

Would the entry level turbo perform as well as the more expensive VR turbos? Not a chance...

It appears that the market today is more price driven than quality/performance.. So entry level turbo might have an audience. Heck, there are some really inexpensive turbos for less than $1000, maybe we start selling them?

fast951

MichelleJD, Will be glad to discuss prices and compatibility with your setup. Please email me directly.

ApexCars

Sure, you could start selling the cheaper stuff. Just don't list it as a Vitesse product. That way people can still get your great customer service even if they are not trying to squeeze every last HP out of their car. Many companies offer a low market and high market line. Think Honda/Acura, Toyota/Lexus. All great products but different from each other. Don't make the mistake of many companies that have started selling low quality products and relying on the brand name to carry them. (ie. Remingtom 710) It dilutes the whole brand and makes people question the rest of the line.

hosrom_951

For the record, it has been proven that you cannot beat some tubochargers for their price and reliability. The K27/6 comes in, for $650-ish you cannot beat the price, performance and reliability of that turbocharger. When vendors come in (not picking anyone specifically) and say (and prove) that their entery level turbocharger can beat a K27/6, it realistically doesn't, since those turbocharger start at $1000. That's $400 more, so it is not right to say it beats such a turbo since it is not price matched in the first place. Not to mention the KKK bullet proof reliability, which is more/less known. I do not run a K27/6, so don't start picking on me, but you have people's view on this who own one, not one complained.

Now, another turocharger that comes in is the 60-1HiFi. Untill now, for price, performance and reliability combo, you cannot beat it and there is proof. It bolt's on to the factory x-over and downpipe, is requires no oil restrictor, no modifictions to the water in/out and don't even have to bend the water hard pipe as well (yes, it clears it).

Again, i have no intention on aiming what i said to ANY vendor, and i have spent a lot of money having my turbo changed (still keeping the cold side though), but just to point out that one doesn't have to follow 951 specific vendors for a turbocharger.

Chris White

OK, one more diatribe on turbos. In a way they are like engine management mods. In my humble opinion just about any slightly knowledgeable fool can make big power by bolting on a different turbo. Just pick out a turbo that is at is peak efficiency at 6500 RPM at the flow dictated by boost and displacement. A little math and a compressor curve and you can pick an off the shelf turbo in 10 minutes.

The catch is that the off boost performance will suck. I was looking at the dyno chart of one of those 500hp Hondas the other day – under 200hp at 6K RPM and them up to 500hp by 8K. That’s gotta suck to drive on anything but the drag strip.

You can do the same thing with engine management mods – tune for peak power and let the rest of it go to hell (anybody remember Huntley stage 4 MAF?)

As I said before – you won’t “get it” until you get to try one. The responsiveness across the whole range is impressive. They are tuned specifically for the 951. They work. Hell, I used to make a couple of hundred selling of the shelf turbos, now I send customers Johns direction – it makes my job as an engine builder / tuner easier and the end product better.

Chris White

BTW – one issue that nobody has mentioned is durability – a lot of the ball bearing turbos don’t have that feature. After looking over John’s turbo and chatting with him I believe these are 100K mile turbos – I won’t go into details as that is John’s product but I am not concerned about long term reliability with these. I have used some turbonetics stuff that should have been installed with Velcro so they could be swapped out easier….