Alpine951

Maybe a stupid question...... Our IC's are aluminum including the end tanks correct?

reno808

I would like to see some numbers. If its a gain i will send mine in. 150 cant hurt.

Cliff Ruckstuhl

Yes the IC are made from aluminum, I installed the upgraded IC today but have not driven it. It is raining here. But from what I can tell is that the car revs faster since it is moving more air that would make sence.

Wolf Pack 88 951

951North

I'm not sure about that?

My physics is a little rusty, but if you have the same volume of air and you are pushing it through a larger opening the velocity of the air has to DECREASE... all other things being equal of course... restriction = velocity

think about blowing through a straw vs a funnel the air moving out of a straw is much faster...

jason.

T Tanner

I can't give any real numbers on this mod, but It must do something to increase the preformance because Lindsey racing as well as a few others are doing a simalar mods to there intercoolers. One quick note this was just a trail run on the frist one. I will do a few things a little differant on the next ones. Wolf Pack will let everyone know how this works for him I'm sure of that. 951north, I understand your thoughts but that would mean smaller valves and intake ports would make HP? This is a good topic to look into. In time I plan to do a dyno run side by side and post the results

951North

I didn't say that the modified end caps would make more or less hp, just that the flow would be slower... maybye on non-stock applications there is benifit to this type of modification... I don't know. Though I did think that smaller diameter intake runners produced more torque, i.e. on vw scirocco 16v motors the stock manifolds are 40mm and the euro's are 50mm diameter. Aparently the 50mm gave more hp at higher revs at a cost of lower torque #'s at lower engine speeds... there's no free lunch.


Yes the proof would be in the pudding...

T Tanner

I see were your coming from, I would have to agree that this would work better on a car that already has been modifided to some extent.It may be a very small gain in the end, as with anything the first couple of feet are easy it's the last few inches that are real hard to get. If this works and makes a little more HP Wolf pack should buy 951 North and myself LUNCH??? lol

Cliff Ruckstuhl

Lunch is on me order any 5 things off the $1.00 at McD and were all set. I do think ther is a HP gain like Tab said that if not than LR and SFR racing would not be selling the upgrades. Looking at the IC and thinking about air flow it looks like the air would get pushed into the back part of the IC because the stock end plate is very close to the IC and I am sure not much air is getting moved to the IC from this end plate. The air will travel the least restructive path and I think the front of the IC at the feed side will allow more air to flow to the back part of the IC then it will the front section because the end plate is very narrow at this spot. I would think we would want more air to flow on the front side of the IC then the back.

Wolf Pack 88 951

User 41221

Something else to consider, if the metal added in to create the expansion space has different thermal properties, you'll create a pressure differential due to temperature differences, that can cause a reduction in flow which in turn increases pressure and heat. A couple of degrees difference can make a surprisingly big difference. You pretty much need to add in material thats the same in composition AND thickness, or you will likely ruin the flow characteristics of the intercooler. Providing a larger opening likewise slows the flow through the intercooler, with the same effect, so you are probably getting a "double whammy". No offense to any involved in this project (I applaud the effort and support any who try to further the cause!) but I am guessing you are doing a good bit more harm than good with this mod. If you want to do something that will help a good bit, design and build a simple water misting system for the stock intercooler.

Look up a dude that goes by the name "Bernoulli", he's a helpful sort and can explain a lot of the physical properties that are at work here.

Regards,

Cliff Ruckstuhl

Looking through 8 pages on EBay looking at all the different front mount IC and ther are allot of them. All had end caps that mirrored each other. I am surprised that our IC feed side is shaped the way that it is. Tab made a mirror piece of the out side of the IC. Even seeing a Porsche IC for sale for the 911 they also have end plates that mirror each other. So Why would Porsche make one that had 2 different ends? Maybe this was away to detune the car so it did not over shadow the 911. We all know that with a few mods a 951 will out run a non turbo 911 the flag ship of Porsche.

I am not sure what the HP gain is we have yet to dyno the car. But just looking at it makes sence to me. LR says ther is an 18 % increase in flow on there modified end cap IC. Granted ther end cap is a nicer end cap wich is nicley cast end and it is $225.00 more. SFR racing also sells the same IC with a modded end cap. Both SFR and LR are selling the IC with only the input end cap being changed. All Tab is doing is using the same idea selling it for a better price.

Wolf Pack 88 951

User 41221

Nice to see my college education, including some pretty in-depth thermodynamics classes, can be negated by looking at 8 pages of ebay! lol

If you want to really see how well your mod is working, the acid test it to measure the outlet temp at WOT using a wire type themocouple. I'm betting you see an increase in temp with your design over a stock unit, but hey, what do I know? You can take the difference in temp and figure out the relative % change in air density and the inverse (temp drop means more hp) will give you the change in the resultant hp.

Wolf, I am in no way meaning to flame you, so I hope you take my comments in the spirit intended.

Regards,

Cliff Ruckstuhl

No flamming taken and I am taken it how it was intended, If what your saying is true then why would LR and SFR be selling a simular design and LR has number's to back up ther mod? I by no way have any numbers to say hey this is better then sliced bread, but looking at it and thinking about air flow and then looking at other front mounted IC and not seeing one that had a end cap like we have makes me think that this could only be better then the stock unit. I also be no means think I am smarter then the designer's but am looking for a way to get more performance. Even if it is just 5-10 hp and it lets the car breath better would seem like well worth the effort.

Wolf Pack 88 951

aeronautica86

to make money

I'm not saying that it will not make some extra horses for you, but I am saying that logic that says "they sell it, so it must work the way they say because they sell it" is flawed

Cliff Ruckstuhl

I agree that they (all the Vendors)are doing it to make money that is why they are in business and they would not be the first to sell something that looked like it would have magical results. In my searching I found 3 vendors that are selling a modified OEM IC. LR does have results posted on the flow and have sold allot of them. If I knew how it would be interesting to be able to get real results and I am sure ther are allot on the list that doing this would be just another day at the office. I'll talk with Tab and see if ther is a way to do some kind of bench testing on this. I am just not sure how much R & D he is willing to do when LR has some number's for a simular design. For me if it increase the flow and we get a small gain in HP and if the car breaths better with better throttle responce then it was worth it. But to have actual numbers would be best.

Wolf Pack 88 951

User 41221

If you take even a quick look at the numbers they posted, you should be able to see some big flaws in their results, or else their product is pretty whacked. The pressure remains the same between the stock and stage I units, yet it posts a bigger delta between inlet and outlet temps than the stage II produces, even tho it has a pressure drop? Also, in a controlled test environment, I would hope that the inlet temps would all be the same... I have no axe to grind with Lindsey, and I generally like their products, but there's no way I would put any faith in the results they posted on this particular product. The physics and their own numbers don't support it. I'm sure Lindsey has access to a dyno to test their products, so I am guessing that it would have been very easy for them to post results that would have shown an improvement.

As for claims about products in general, ever hear of the "Spiralmax"? lol

Regards,