schnellfahrer

I had this problem a couple of times last year. I thought it was the battery, and after recharging it, the problem went away.
I replaced the battery a week ago because it wouldn't hold the charge for long.

Now the problem from last year is back.

When I try to start the car I only hear a click. The battery shows 12.5V. When I turn the key the voltage drops to around 11V.
I talked to Dan (iceshark) about this last year, and he was very helpful, but before I could trobleshoot any, the problem was gone (as I said, I thought it was the battery).

Any tips on what this might be? Starter going south?

Here's a sound file of what it sounds like when I turn the key:

http://www.schnell951.com/audio/starter.wav

Any help is appreciated.

Charlotte944

Ignition switch? If memory serves, all of the solenoid holding current goes through contacts in the ignition switch.

Over time the contacts get burned and pitted, and will eventually fail. Bad switch contacts will limit the amount of current flowing to the solenoid, preventing it from fully engaging the starter gear and/or sending power to the starter motor.

Another possibility is burned/pitted contacts in the solenoid. This would allow the starter to engage, but the starter would not have enough torque to turn the engine over.

A third possibility is the solenoid is binding.

A fourth possibility is the starter drive gear linkage is binding.

When you turn the ignition key to the "Start" position, several things happen:

1. DME relay energises and sends power to the DME and fuel pump.
2. Solenoid energizes, sending power to the starter motor and engaging the starter drive and starter ring gear.
3. Engine turns over, injectors and plugs fire, engine starts.

I would start off with pulling the starter and testing it. With the starter out you can "bench test" it by BRIEFLY applying power. You can use either jumper cables from the battery, or a battery charger. Do not let the starter run for any amount of time. Starter motors are "series wound" DC motors and have this unique ability to over speed and hand grenade when they run unloaded. All you want to do is verify that the solenoid engages and the motor runs. This is a very opportunity to clean and lubricate the solenoid linkage. Applying a small amount of high temp bearing grease (MolyCoat?) to the drive shaft and linkage works for me. NOTE: Be sure you have the starter "restrained" when you apply power. You don't want to use a vise, just hold the starter down. Torque from the motor will make it "jump" when the solenoid engages, so be ready.

When you reinstall the starter, make sure the connections are clean, and if possible apply some dielectric grease to the terminals, or install rubber boots. Either one will help keep the connections from corroding.

This is also a good time to check/clean/tighten the electrical connections to the battery and alternator. Don't forget to clean/check/tighten grounds!

HTH

special tool

Also - did you ever go through the entire fusebox with a meter looking for a draw?

schnellfahrer

Thanks Cliff. Great tips!
The main problem is that this is an intermittent problem. If I tow-start (is that a word?) the car; I know it probably will start OK for a few days, and maybe even weeks. I ran 4 months last year without this problem.
I don't have any place to work on the car either (driveway is gravel) so I need to take it to a shop.
The point of my post was to get some idea of what are the most common points of failure between the battery and the starter.

I guess I'll have someone check out the starter for me.
Is the starter a "generic" item? Will the shop have spare parts for this starter?

schnellfahrer

Jim, the draw from the battery with the engine off is 0.05 amps.
Sounds right, doesn't it?

IceShark

Yeah, 0.05 amps draw with car turned off is about right for the average car especially if you have an alarm system.

If you are hearing the click when you turn the key to start, then you are getting current to the solenoid trigger, otherwise you wouldn't hear the click. I'm not sure how many amps the solenoid draws, but it isn't much so don't go chasing switches yet.

I'd suspect some of Cliff's ideas regarding the solenoid being bad and or the pinion gear is binding. The old trick in this situation is to whack the starter with a tire iron. Sort of hard to do that on our cars, though.

If you don't have a place to work on the car (one guy I know dug a trench in his yard and drove his car over it ) and have to take it to a shop then you need to buy a rebuilt starter as shop labor rates are an issue. Our cars' starters spin backasswards so are not common in that Bosch shell. We have the only application as far as I know but there may be some other cars with transaxles that take it. So chase down the correct rebuilt starter.

Too bad you can't do the work yourself because you could do it for well under 50 USD in parts.

schnellfahrer

Thanks for your input Dan.
If I were to try to do this myself, what parts would I need?
Can I get to and remove the starter just by jacking up the car?

IceShark

Well, I'd say a new solenoid. Maybe a pinion gear, depending on how your's looks. You want to put it on a bench, apply power and see what is going on. But those are the common failures.

The starter is on the rear, right side of the bellhousing. It is nice to get the front and rear of the car off the ground by a foot so you can get under there but maybe you can get enough room just lifting up the right side or the front. I always lift the whole car up as it is almost as easy as a short cut.

I can remove the starter in about 10 minutes but I have socket extensions and know what I'm doing. The "hard" parts are cracking free the 2 main bolts that hold the starter to the bellhousing if they haven't been removed in a long time and getting the bolt that holds the heat shield to the torque tube free. That one takes a long extension. Everything else is pretty straight forward. Removal of the starter is a rather simple job. But, before you start wrenching, make damn sure the battery is disconnected. The main power supply to the starter is live and you will arc weld and melt bits if you short that with a wrench. And probably a banged head as you jump when you arc it.

schnellfahrer

Where would one go to aquire said parts?

Black Arrow

Eivind - it doesnt take any time to get it out. I`ll give you telephone suppert all the way if you want! Then contact http://www.triconor.no/ (a norwegian company if anyone was wondering) They`re very helpful with stuff like this! They helped me with my bad alternator last summer. Its a starter and alternator bosch workshop.

IceShark

Probably a starter/alternator repair shop if you are just getting one of each. May as well let them do the whole repair on the starter as they will charge you retail for the parts anyway. Pull out the starter and set it on their desk. In the USA getting that type of rebuild costs around $65.

I buy the parts from the manufacturer as I do enough business with them on adjustable voltage regulators that I have a wholesale account. I've sold items to Rennlisters in the USA and would do so for you, except the solenoid is a heavy little sucker and the shipping would probably add enough to just buy locally.

DHC8FO

I had a simular problem, mine turned out to be the ground cable. It looked fine on the outside, but after it was replaced I opened it up can found internal corrosion. It's a cheap and easy fix. I found out after replacing the starter, the alternator, and the battery. I could have fixed it for about $12. Oh well, I'll get a new car a few parts at a time.

schnellfahrer

Can you supply partnumbers for the solenoid and the pinion gear(s)?

schnellfahrer

Anyone? Pretty please with sugar on top?

IceShark

I don't have the Lester cross reference book(s) - the part number is going to vary on who is making it but the Lester number cross references all of them. Just go ask the shop you are going to buy it from to look up the number.

The solenoid from Transpo is #66-1955.

I don't have an invoice handy for the pinion gear number.