Turbonetics Experience
01-05-2005, 01:35 AM
#61
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An intake could be part of of a future upgrade, remember being a student has its financial drawbacks.....
As i said, i wouldn't be looking for an extensive list of modifications right now, just the bolt-ons........
As i said, i wouldn't be looking for an extensive list of modifications right now, just the bolt-ons........
01-05-2005, 02:13 AM
#62
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Originally Posted by TonyG
For the record...
I was not, at least at the end of my development cycle, running a ball bearing turbo. MySwiss bought the car, and it's still running the non-ball bearing turbo.
The only reason why it was not running a ball bearing turbo is that, for what ever reason, my ball bearing turbo had a bent shaft (slightly). I had my buddy (turbo bob at turbo-performance.com) rebuild the turbo with the only center section I could get at the time (a non-ball bearing center section), to make the next race.
The lag increased for sure by about 400 rpms. But for the track I was running on, it didn't matter much given that the engine had such good top end power.
I've been trying to convince MySwiss that he should re-install the .70 a/r P trim turbine housing, and use a Innovative dual bearing center section. He would pick up at least 10-20rwhp on the top end, and reduce the lag by at least 300 rpms-400 rpms. He should... he'd love it.
But the bottom line is that the 60-1HiFi is an increadible compressor. Probably one of the best designs in that air flow range ever built for sure.
Prior to running the extensive top-end modifications, I ran a 60-1HiFi on a turbonetics single ball bearing center section with a Turbonetics KKK replica hot side with a stage V trim. Honestly... the lag was the same as with the current setup MySwiss was running.
TonyG
I was not, at least at the end of my development cycle, running a ball bearing turbo. MySwiss bought the car, and it's still running the non-ball bearing turbo.
The only reason why it was not running a ball bearing turbo is that, for what ever reason, my ball bearing turbo had a bent shaft (slightly). I had my buddy (turbo bob at turbo-performance.com) rebuild the turbo with the only center section I could get at the time (a non-ball bearing center section), to make the next race.
The lag increased for sure by about 400 rpms. But for the track I was running on, it didn't matter much given that the engine had such good top end power.
I've been trying to convince MySwiss that he should re-install the .70 a/r P trim turbine housing, and use a Innovative dual bearing center section. He would pick up at least 10-20rwhp on the top end, and reduce the lag by at least 300 rpms-400 rpms. He should... he'd love it.
But the bottom line is that the 60-1HiFi is an increadible compressor. Probably one of the best designs in that air flow range ever built for sure.
Prior to running the extensive top-end modifications, I ran a 60-1HiFi on a turbonetics single ball bearing center section with a Turbonetics KKK replica hot side with a stage V trim. Honestly... the lag was the same as with the current setup MySwiss was running.
TonyG
01-05-2005, 02:20 AM
#63
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Horsey, the main reason you would get a new intake is to run a bigger turbo as the stock intake inhibits the size... so maybe if you are going to get a new intake at somne stage, you should get the turbo at the same time so you dont limit your choices now.
01-05-2005, 02:31 AM
#65
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Andy: So does the 60-1 HIFI suite well with the typical bolt ons and runs nicely (giving a nice power curve) at moderate noost levels?
Daniel: Your dyno results are nice (13psi, 14-15psi and 17psi), that is more/less what i had in mind......
But again, im talking about Dual Ball Bearing turbos.
Daniel: Your dyno results are nice (13psi, 14-15psi and 17psi), that is more/less what i had in mind......
But again, im talking about Dual Ball Bearing turbos.
01-05-2005, 03:02 AM
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Originally Posted by hosrom_951
Andy: So does the 60-1 HIFI suite well with the typical bolt ons and runs nicely (giving a nice power curve) at moderate noost levels?
Daniel: Your dyno results are nice (13psi, 14-15psi and 17psi), that is more/less what i had in mind......
But again, im talking about Dual Ball Bearing turbos.
Daniel: Your dyno results are nice (13psi, 14-15psi and 17psi), that is more/less what i had in mind......
But again, im talking about Dual Ball Bearing turbos.
01-05-2005, 04:24 AM
#68
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>>>It could have been even lower then 17psi but not sure since i had a dam manual boost controller which isn't very accurate<<<
It's not the boost controller that's the problem. I ran a little "black ****" manual boost controller with a Tial 46mm wastegate. It was, and is, a (and is on other cars) bullet proof dead nuts accurate setup to control boost.
And it's been compared against very expensive electronic boost controllers. Zero difference with respect to turbo spool up, ability to control boost, boost creep, etc...
If you have a boost control problem, you should rectify it asap. Not knowing exactly what boost level you're running is a major problem waiting to happen.
TonyG
It's not the boost controller that's the problem. I ran a little "black ****" manual boost controller with a Tial 46mm wastegate. It was, and is, a (and is on other cars) bullet proof dead nuts accurate setup to control boost.
And it's been compared against very expensive electronic boost controllers. Zero difference with respect to turbo spool up, ability to control boost, boost creep, etc...
If you have a boost control problem, you should rectify it asap. Not knowing exactly what boost level you're running is a major problem waiting to happen.
TonyG
01-05-2005, 04:34 AM
#69
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TonyG, you should add the comment that ambient temps DO effect the level of boost when using a MBC over an EBC though... That is colder temps increase the boost levels with a MBC. Example my mate with an EVO and Turbosmart MBC noticed a .2 bar increase from one day to the next with a large drop in ambient temp.
01-05-2005, 04:49 AM
#70
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>>>TonyG, you should add the comment that ambient temps DO effect the level of boost when using a MBC over an EBC though<<<
That might be true for people in parts of the country/world that experience wide temp/barometric fluctuations... but here on Southern California... that's not the case. If I set my boost at 15 psi (for example), it didn't matter if it was 50F or 100F.. it was still hitting 15psi (according to the gauge...)
Obviously an Autometer boost gauge is not perfectly accurate, and obviously when you're boosting through the gears you can only "glance" at the gauge. But from what I could tell... and this is over a long period of street/track time, I saw no fluctuations based on ambient conditions.
I really believe that the Tial 46mm with the appropriate spring can make any boost controller look good :-)
Just my experience...
TonyG
>>>TonyG, you should add the comment that ambient temps DO effect the level of boost when using a MBC over an EBC though<<<
That might be true for people in parts of the country/world that experience wide temp/barometric fluctuations... but here on Southern California... that's not the case. If I set my boost at 15 psi (for example), it didn't matter if it was 50F or 100F.. it was still hitting 15psi (according to the gauge...)
Obviously an Autometer boost gauge is not perfectly accurate, and obviously when you're boosting through the gears you can only "glance" at the gauge. But from what I could tell... and this is over a long period of street/track time, I saw no fluctuations based on ambient conditions.
I really believe that the Tial 46mm with the appropriate spring can make any boost controller look good :-)
Just my experience...
TonyG
01-05-2005, 04:52 AM
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Tony: Now say you got a stage 5 trim dual BB, it would spool up roughly the same (or slightly less) as a stage 3 single BB? but then i would have some extra 10whp or so in the upper rpm range?
Delaer here said it drops spool by 800+rpm which sounds fetchy to me.
Delaer here said it drops spool by 800+rpm which sounds fetchy to me.
01-05-2005, 05:00 AM
#72
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hosrom_951
>>> Now say you got a stage 5 trim dual BB, it would spool up roughly the same (or slightly less) as a stage 3 single BB? but then i would have some extra 10whp or so in the upper rpm range?
<<<
*the difference between single bb and dual bb is going to be fairly trivial with respect to spool.
**But I, and a ton of people I know, have had lots of oiling/smoking issues with single bb turbos, with and without restrictors, etc... The dual center bb cartrige setups from Innovative have had zero such problems to the best of my knowledge..
What you're asking, since the only difference is between the turbine trims, is if one turbo would spool the same as the other, and would one make more power than the other....
First off, I could not accurately answer that question. I moved into the full tilt garrett turbines after only one experience with a Turbonetics replica KKK turbine setup. And... it was only the stage V setup so I don't have anything to compare to, in order to answer your question.
But in general terms, if you open up the turbine (ie., stage 3 vs stage 5), you'll get more lag, but more top end power (depending on a lot of things... like the ability of your top end to breath, etc..).
Sorry for the vague answer.
TonyG
>>> Now say you got a stage 5 trim dual BB, it would spool up roughly the same (or slightly less) as a stage 3 single BB? but then i would have some extra 10whp or so in the upper rpm range?
<<<
*the difference between single bb and dual bb is going to be fairly trivial with respect to spool.
**But I, and a ton of people I know, have had lots of oiling/smoking issues with single bb turbos, with and without restrictors, etc... The dual center bb cartrige setups from Innovative have had zero such problems to the best of my knowledge..
What you're asking, since the only difference is between the turbine trims, is if one turbo would spool the same as the other, and would one make more power than the other....
First off, I could not accurately answer that question. I moved into the full tilt garrett turbines after only one experience with a Turbonetics replica KKK turbine setup. And... it was only the stage V setup so I don't have anything to compare to, in order to answer your question.
But in general terms, if you open up the turbine (ie., stage 3 vs stage 5), you'll get more lag, but more top end power (depending on a lot of things... like the ability of your top end to breath, etc..).
Sorry for the vague answer.
TonyG
01-05-2005, 05:05 AM
#73
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Thats why I have a one bar spring in my Tial...
Interesting that cooler more dense (presumably) does not increase boost in your climate. Irrespective of the boost gauges accuracy, we are dealing with changes in boost level, obviously the needle still moves. MBC fluctuations is a big issue here...
Here are some links to ambient temps affecting boost in some other forums
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/show...00#post1183200
http://f2.autospeed.com/cms/A_1465/article.html
Look under "Atmospheric Variations..."
They say
In addition to boost variations across different engine loads, the ambient temperature can also have an affect on bleed-type boost control systems.
As ambient temperature drops, a given engine produces more power. This results in increased exhaust flow, which - in turn - produces more boost pressure.
If you want to be ultra careful setting up your wastegate bleed system, it's best to do it when it's coolest. This will minimise the chance of your set boost ceiling being exceeded late down the track.
Also - if winter is coming around - you might want to double-check any existing bleed valve settings.
Interesting that cooler more dense (presumably) does not increase boost in your climate. Irrespective of the boost gauges accuracy, we are dealing with changes in boost level, obviously the needle still moves. MBC fluctuations is a big issue here...
Here are some links to ambient temps affecting boost in some other forums
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/show...00#post1183200
http://f2.autospeed.com/cms/A_1465/article.html
Look under "Atmospheric Variations..."
They say
In addition to boost variations across different engine loads, the ambient temperature can also have an affect on bleed-type boost control systems.
As ambient temperature drops, a given engine produces more power. This results in increased exhaust flow, which - in turn - produces more boost pressure.
If you want to be ultra careful setting up your wastegate bleed system, it's best to do it when it's coolest. This will minimise the chance of your set boost ceiling being exceeded late down the track.
Also - if winter is coming around - you might want to double-check any existing bleed valve settings.
01-05-2005, 07:48 AM
#74
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Let's see, i get 50+ C heat in summer (120+ F) and now it's 17 C (~60 F?) in winter, now THAT is a climate change don't you agree?
01-05-2005, 09:25 AM
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Andrew is correct, a change in outside temp affects boost (with a bleeder type MBC). I can see a variation of 4-6psi on the track between hot afternoon and cold early morning. For those that do not have an external boost gauge, it's time to get one.