slim_boy_fat

Mmm not sure about that....

hosrom_951

GURU Quote:

The stock Porsche 951 Bosch 34.6-lb/hr injectors typically run into their 100% duty-cycle limit at around 260-280rwhp

So if 18psi chip package gives you 270-280whp they would be maxed out, but i know for sure that Danno always adds some kind of safety margin in his chips, that is why i said i THINK he may have done something to the chips (again a BIG maybe).

Again, the 3bar FPR also adds 9% or so to help avoiding this (again from GURU) but i could be mistaken here

UK952

I'm making more than 280 on 15psi chips ( I forget the exact figure as my printout shows flywheel of 323bhp 329ftlbs).
Tony

david fracolli

I am not saying that one vendor is better than the other. Since I am not currently running either Vitesse or Guru's products I am not in the posistion to make that claim. The only thing I was making a comment too was an observation of the 2 dyno charts that were provided.

tconn

Maybe I'm missing something but it looks to me like the Vitesse dyno chart
was for a car with a K26/6 and the Guru charts were for cars with
the K26/8 turbo. Am I wrong?
If not ,you can't compare the dyno charts. It's apples and oranges.
Of course the K26/8 is going to make more HP/TQ.

UK952

Can't really compare two different locations on two different days or two different cars on the same day far too many variables really. Even the same car at the same location a month or so apart may not yield the same results.
Tony

david fracolli

On the Guru sight there are dyno charts for both the k26/6 turbo and the k26/8 turbo. The 2 dyno charts I was comparing both used k26/6 turbos.
I could not agree more that it would be completely unfair to compare a k26/6 to a k26/8.

Cyrus951

We're comparing a 26/6 to another 26/6.

shaheed

how do you figure this? assuming a conservative loss of 15% (most dynos that approximate flywheel hp seem to use 18 or more) you get 323*.85 = 274.55.

i'm sure you guys realize that comparing the k26/6 car on guru's website to the k26/6 on vitesse's website is still not apples to apples unless you make sure that the mod levels are exactly the same on both cars and get matching baseline runs on both cars before adding the chips. one car could easily have a test pipe, or have lower compression etc.

what is an apples to apples test however, is jeremy's dynos where he ran the same car with the different chips.

Cyrus951

The printouts usually have the mods labeled on them. In Guru's case, it was labeled as a stock 26/6 951.

Where are Jeremy's "sheets?"

shaheed

i have several raw dyno runs of my car on my computer, i could very easily add the comment "stock 86 944 turbo" to mine and print it out....and there you have it a 320whp stock 951. i'm not suggesting that guru would ever do something so low. the point is that you don't know that two cars were equal to begin with. one could very easily be a tired low compression engine.

Cyrus951

Yes I know, but the difference is a couple of horses, not anything that large.
I guess I'm just tired of hearing that Jeremy has these sheets that show Vitesse outperforming Guru, but apparently, nobody has ever seen them

shaheed

similarly i'm tired of hearing that guru makes the best chips, yet there are several of us for whom the guru chips never worked properly. i waited the better part of a year and could never get a set of guru chips that my car would even start with, yet it took only one day to get a set of vitesse chips that worked the first time out. i have a hard time understanding the logic that says the guy with the 90% success ratio is 'better' than the guy with the 100% success ratio.

hosrom_951

I believe this subject is now closed

Shaheed congrates on the new born

Jeremy Himsel

Not yet hos, I'm just reading it....


Cyrus, since you’ve called me out on this one. You seem to be promoting a product you don’t even have. Before you start spending other peoples money, buy some stuff of your own and make real world comments. You (or the people you are advising) should really reread some of your previous posts and re-evaluate your expertise. As far as MY dyno charts go, it’s none of your damn business. One of the reasons I never posted them online is so the troll of the day didn’t take someone else’s testing and use them just to be part of a flame war for recognition or to feel important. I have in fact, sent them to other listers who wanted them for real research in making a decision. If you want them, send me $100 and I’ll drive to the dyno shop, get a copy, and sent them to you in the mail. You can start “saving up” for them now. Before you beat around the bush and call me a liar, know what you’re talking about first and be relevant in the conversation.

I’ve been occupied with work and haven’t been able to participate in these threads. At this moment I’m in a hotel room in SC but I would like add a few comments to this thread since my name was brought up (otherwise I would have stayed out of it).

There are many chips on the market and I’ve come to learn that each one has its own positives and negatives. I’m going to stay away from the negatives of each as unless you’ve been on the moon, they’ve been hammered out a zillion times. The difference her is unlike Cyrus, I’ve actually tried these products and I’m not “saving up” for my next (or first for that matter) upgrade. On my own cars as well as installed them on others and despite the claims by our newest performance expert, have been on the dyno.

APE’s and Welts are for the owner who wants to pick up a few extra HP and is not interested in pushing the envelope. Despite what popular belief is, when run as intended by the manufactures, they are a very safe performance improvement and do a great job of retaining the stock drivability characteristics (which isn’t that great just off idle).

Guru chips tend to push the performance envelope and are for owners who want to be at that edge. They offer some adjustability and are reasonably priced. The also tend to improve the off idle response. I didn’t even notice how bad it was until I installed these and the next chip on this post. They make a good amount of HP and TQ over the APE’s and Welts.

The Vitesse chips are for the discriminating owner who also wants to push the envelope. The best part of these chips is there is ZERO trade off in drivability, the chips are adjustable with typical “stock” upgrades, and are also reasonably priced. The HP increase over the other chips was negligible in my opinion. For good measure let’s say it was 10 hp or less. The part of this that makes it a real (and in my opinion the best) value was a 20 FT/lb increase in TQ. In a 951 this is very valuable. They made 285 ft/lb on a “stock” 26/6 car.

The next part of this is to explain the car these items were on. It was an 86 951 with chips, a tial WG, and a cheapo MBC. That’s it. No K&N, no test pipe, no cat back, no piggy back. The only other non stock items were a boost gauge, and magnacore wires. The motor was “essentially fresh” and had 2% leakdown or less and the injectors were @ 99% or better. There was only about 500 mils or so in the bearings so it was still a bit tight. The boost was peaking at about 15.5 psi and dropping off to 14 around 5k or so. Air temps were in the 110-degree range. No magic, no bashing, just a few dyno runs on my dime and my experiences.

As far as my dyno charts go. The dyno operator only sent me one file and since a recent computer crash I’ve lost that. The chart on Vitesse’s web site is from this car but the one that is posted it the lower of the HP/TQ #’s. As I said, that’s what the guy sent me. I know, it seems like a good story and if you don’t believe me then don’t. I have nothing to gain or lose by this. I do have the printouts of the runs which shows the actual numbers. Last week I was looking for them to show rennlister Z3bra and could only find the 240/285 Vitesse run. I didn’t have a lot of time to look for them and if you saw the mediocre filing system I have in my tool box you’d understand. If you don’t believe me, PM Z3bra and ask him what he saw. He’s never been involved in this and is pretty impartial. In fact, I sold him my Guru 18 psi chips and he’s running them in his car as we speak. Any yes, he’s happy with them. As far as the “no one has ever seen them” comment goes, I have e-mailed to several listers when they requested and if they chose to post them then it’s their business. If they still have them I’d love it if they would send them back to me since I lost my e-copies.

To the new guys on this board and the 951world, I would like to give you a bit if insight. Laugh at 90% of what you read here and believe 10% of it. The guy with the most post isn’t necessarily the expert and in many cases he spends his evenings on his computer like a mad scientist regurgitating third, fourth, and fifth hand information that started out from a mediocre source while his car sits unmodified in his garage. Better yet, when you think someone knows what he’s talking about, research some of the questions he’s posted in the past six months and that may give you some more insight into his mechanical aptitude and performance experience. You’d be surprised how many people read some compressor map and then go of into a four page argument on why it’s better then the local tuners turbo, meanwhile they’ve only done elementary bolt-on modifications to their FIRST performance car which sits on the stock turbo. Some of them have never even driven a 951 with an aftermarket turbo. Before you know it they’ll be starting their own line of performance parts. I think Chris Cervelli summed it up best on his Technodyne site.

As far as the chip vs chip argument goes. I guess the best way to sum it up is there is a chip for each owner. If your really looking for advice on a chip, don’t ask, do a search. You’ll get better info and have fewer comments from the peanut gallery. If you have specific questions. PM the guys who you think have tried them or know what they’re talking about. As far as the guru vs vitesse chips go, there are several guys on this thread that can give you insightful real world experience with each if them (Guru- Jake, Todd, ect.) (vitesse – Steve Venturi, Awilson), instead of giving you the XXX rocks sermon when their car doesn’t have the products they support or promote. There are also several that have tried them both and can give you an accurate comparison (me, shaheed, tconn). The most important point is to make your decision wisely as many guys here like to spend other people’s money just to participate in a post. And more importantly, have fun with your car. If I made a ton of spelling and grammar errors, I’ve spent too much time at the lovely Fox & Hounds here in Charlotte so you can blame them. I’ve gotta go……there’s a couple of thong wearing women in the hot tub I need to stalk. Have a good night.