Screwynewy

Ok, here's the deal. I am looking for a second car for spirited driving after work and weekends. I will be signing up for my first DE soon and would like to get into some autocross events, maybe 4-5 times a year. Price of the car is not the determining factor although cost of maintenance and repair is a consideration. I will probably drive the car 8,000 to 10,000 miles a year. Oh yeah, I live in NC and I am 38.

Here are the to car options:

1) 1988 Porsche 951 S w/ 112k miles, new clutch, water pump and timing belt replaced at 102k. New brake rotors and pads on all 4 corners. The car supposedly needs nothing at this time, all records available. Price $12,500.

Pros: Thrill to drive, true sports car handling and performance, exclusive/unique, always loved and wanted a 951, holds value better than M3

Cons: Cost to own, reliability, what else am I missing???

2) 1995 BMW M3 coupe 5 speed w/ 89k miles, 2 owner car, perfect condition and fully maintained. New waterpump and radiator, motor mounts, shock mounts, transmission mounts, M1 used since new, new Yok ES100 tires. Meticulously maintained by both prior owners. Price $13,500

Pros: Reliability, everday driveability, low end torque, low cost performance mods, newer/safer.

Cons: Less performance, I have owned a 97 M3 sedan w/ auto (so that shouldn't count), more potential for depreciation, not as exclusive as the 951.

Since I have never owned a 951 my main concerns are reliabity and daily driveability. Please make any suggestions or recommendations based on your own experience with either of these cars. Thanks for your input.

sweanders

If you are going to track it the 951 would probably be the better choice, both are great cars with equal build quality. I don't think you can go wrong with either car.

Btw, do you guys in the US have the same 286/321 hp M3?

M@rk951

No we have a crappy 230bhp. For track the 951 would be better and u can get more from the 951 money wise. If u wanted to turbo the m3 your talking 6k. I had the same choice 3 weeks ago and chose the 951 . Turbo... faster....more style to the car (imo)....they are amazing lol.

89951DREAMER

Take my opinion with a grain of salt. I am a BMW mechanic at our local BMW dealer, and I own a 1988 944 Turbo S. I have always thought that the US spec E36 M3 was a dog. Nothing more than a warmed over production E36. The HP is not much more than the 328is, and the handling is virtually the same. To me there really isn't anything special about an E36 M3. However, they are stone reliable and provide some good driving entertainment. The 951S is a faster car hands down, and the HP potential is much greater than the BMW. However, the price is reliability. As the HP goes up the reliability goes down. I think you're wrong about the BMW not holding it's value. We have a nice '97 M3 on our lot right now for $18,500. It's about the same milage as the one you're looking at, and not perfect. My choice would be the 951 because it is a car you can start with and learn with. Then when the time comes, you can upgrade it to almost any level of performance you desire. With the M3, you are somewhat stuck in the HP department without a turbo add-on.

Ian

Screwynewy

Good points to consider. Thanks for the input!

fast951

Well most are going to be surprised to hear me say this. For a beginner, the M3 is an easier car to drive fast on the track. The handling is very nice, and it's a very forgiving car. The 951 is a superb car, but the learning curve is a bit steeper (you have to learn how to drive a turbo). The 951 if maintained correctly can be very reliable...
As far as HP, the 951 has endless potential. Braking is a negative issue on the M3, most people upgrade to the Big Reds (yes Porsche calipers on a BMW).

When I lived in NC (5 years ago), very few shops know the 951.. Many claim they do, but I would be hesitant to trust them.. Start modifying the car, and even fewer people will touch the 951. So unless you plan on doing the work yourself, get a BMW M3..

I see that you have concerns about resale value.. However, if you plan on going to the track, forget any notion about financial responsibility.... Even at the DE level, if you calculate the expenses (brakes, tires, gas, lodging, entry fee...) more than likely you are looking at $1000-1200 a weekend.. Start going faster, add the wear on the car... and $2K a weekend is not out of the question... You have been warned.. LOL

Corwin

For what its worth here is my opinion. I was looking into an M3 before I found the 951. M3s are very nice, but after finally driving one I have to admit with the other posters in that they are dogs in the power deparment compared to my turbo cars. There is no comparisson with a 951. The 951 would own it bad. I thought the low end torque of the M3 would impress me, but compared to my Volvo it just doesn't have the *****. It is faster because it can use its power more effectively, but once the T5 gets traction it will toast an E36 M3. The M3 handles very well though and is very cool. I wouldn't say they are super reliable though. There are plenty of people with lots of issues over on bimmerforums.com. Same thing goes as with the 944 (or any car), if you maintain it right and do preventative maintenance they will last a long time.

One thing I noticed at my last autocross. There were M3s there, but just about everybody came and gawked at my 951. People were fawning over it and I had lots of people stop to talk. The M3s don't quite get that treatment.

One thing to note. The 95 M3s didn't make as much torque as the OBD2 cars because they had a 3.0L vs a 3.2L engine. They did make better high end HP though. The 95s are also easier to mod. However wringing much more HP out of an M3 is a very costly prospect. You can get about 30 more hp for around $2500-3000. Any more than that and you are spending big $$$ on forced induction and that isn't good for reliability. Spend that money on a few mods to a 951 and it would own a E46 M3 pretty bad and the E46 is lightyears ahead of the E36 in power. Basically there is no comparisson at all power wise. The porsche wins hands down and IMHO is more fun to drive.

rage2

I've driven both cars extensively on and off the track, and suprisingly, the M3 handles better than the 951. Ultimate grip is close between 2 well sorted cars, but the M3 is much easier to drive, rewarding you with very consistent laptimes. It's a much better daily driver compared to the 951 too. Comfy, and nicer creature comforts.
The M3 does too, and it costs similar when aiming for the 400whp range. The M3 I tuned is featured in this months Performance BMW magazine. 415whp at 7.5psi of boost (supercharged) on pump gas. With a turbo setup, there's more power potential on pump gas than the 951 thanks to higher displacement, and better breathing up top, as well as able to rev higher. And, it's nice being able to just drop in replacement forged pistons .

Of course, if you're looking at cheap mods, you can't beat the 951's hp to $ ratio. But when it comes to big hp, gotta pay to play regardless of the car choice.

Eyal 951

considering you can probably get a built 3.0 block with 4 valve head for the price of forced induction on the m3, there seems like a greater power potential STILL for the porsche... then again, I am not experience in this type of extreme modding yet, still in the petty stages!
~Eyal

rage2

Lemme know where I can buy these cheap 3L block w/4 valve heads . I built my 2.8L block only, and that hurt the wallet HUGE!

Eyal 951

in tha case, with no further research, I stand corrected... by the way, are those ground control springs you are running?
~Eyal

dhallilama

Not an S, but a personal comparison:
i now only have ~1250 miles on a lightly modded '86 951...
And ~100k on my last '95 M3.
In comparison, the 951 is far quicker/faster, cheaper to mod (for the amount of power made), and cheaper to buy. Granted, it's not a turbo-s...
As a daily driver, i think the M3 would win hands down... spirited driving in the canyons; i'd take the M3... Havent had my 951 on a track yet, but most of my time is spent doing hard street driving... most of which I favor the M3 for. But damn, i had around $5k in engine mods, another $8k in other mods (just parts, i do all the labor)... and this bastard up the street in his nearly stock '88 951 kept blowing me away. Which led me to buying one.

As far as resale goes... sold my M3 with 190k miles for $18k, purchased for $16k 2 years earlier, put $8k into it (already had $5k of mods). Mods dont really help increase the value of M's too much... But i think it was all well worth it, with an acceptable loss.

Today I had the opportunity to take my 951 through my favorite canyon. I felt far more confidence with my previous M3, able to hit higher speeds through the turns. That car would stick to a line quite well. More civilized than my 951... which i'm still gaining the feel for.

As far as M3's go... '95, being OBD1 is quite a bit more mod-friendly. And comparing an automatic M to a manual is pretty far off.

Dont get me wrong... i absolutely love my 951... and dont plan on selling it. But another '95 M3 will be parked in my garage again. Hopefully along side the 951. Then i can get a bus pass, for when they're both broken :0

Again, these are just my opinions... and you know what they say about opionions...

special tool

Rage - I think you are really pushing the validity envelope when you say the M3 and 951 cost similar to get to 400 hp. How much does a set of 6 BMW custom pistons and a bottom end build-up cost. C'mon, man.

clubracer6

Unless you're absoluely in love w/951's (like a lot of us are) get the M3. On paper I think it would be the better choice...

C5Driver951

Find a car with good maintenance records if you're going the 951 route. Additionally, try to find a car with the mods you want already in place. You can pretty much get the stuff for nothing as they typically don't add much in value to the entry price on the car. I know I paid way too much for my car when I bought it, but it's been dead solid reliable. I believe you get what you pay for.

If you're going to the track, think roll bar, race seat, harnesses, fire bottle, and suspension work. I wouldn't get a car with more power than a turbo or S as they will already have enough to make you feel like a hero on the track. Try driving an N/A on the track if you really want to learn momentum...