rage2

I've been posting my tuning methodology on Rennlist ever since I figured it out. Everything from fuel tuning, to timing, to how to improve boost response through fuel and timing curves. IMO anyone can learn, I learned how to tune on my 951 motor, and from reading reading reading. Lots of help from the gurus such as Danno, TonyG, John, etc. If you search back to my posts, when I first registered, my car was being fitted with standalone (sept 01). I didn't even know why I was making more power at lower boost. I didn't even have a wideband o2 (GASP). My complete fuel and timing maps were posted for all to see.

There's hope for everyone to learn, just depends if you want to dedicate a chunk of time towards it. When I say anyone can do it, I mean anyone. I'm a hardcore geek (my job requires it unfortunately), and I'm not very mechanically inclined. I think I'd have trouble changing my oil (seriously). All my mechanical work is done by Marc @ Alpine Autowerks here in town. I just tune. Can't get my hands dirty pressing buttons on a laptop .

lithium

Show me another engine that can do that? We are talking about stock internals... NONE. If thats not impressive i dont know what is, the 2jz motor holds most of the power and reability records in any production car. I dont want to argue this point further tho, id like to get back to discussing the original topic.

rage2

rb26dett .

It was nice that there was an era where manufacturer stuffed stock cars with completely forged internals, and built the motors to actually be able to sustain those kinda power levels. Too bad that's over now, where cost cutting is the focus.

Duke

rb26dett @ 10.000 rpm makes some nice noise

TurboTim

We tune all of our cars on 91 octane pump gas.Typically we can run about 16-17 psi safely on this fuel.Anything over this and detonation occurs.Ofcourse this is on an 8 to 1 compression motor.With a motor that has 8.5 to 1 compression, we have only been able to run about 1 bar of boost before detonation occurs.9 to 1 compression allowa us to run about 12-13 psi before detonation sets in.

951sucker

Lithium,

If I were you I would consider the Kokeln turbo with the right chips and matching injectors. Also take into account that a bigger turbo works even better when you have a camshaft that opens the intake for a longer duration compared to the stock. A nice combination like that will not only give you lesser lag but also provide more hp in the higher (> 4000) RPM range

rage2

Chips?

At this level, it'd be standalone territory, as the proper tune window that I've mentioned gets narrower and narrower.

Lithium already mentioned wanting Motec or AEM as a standalone setup.

Duke

IMHO none of the available Kokeln-turbos for our cars support the kind of powerlevels/CFM & pressure ratio that Lithium are after.

DanaT

run and clear the manifold, I would actually answer your question with a more basic question.

Why do you feel the need to run the biggest turbo possible? That is not being a smart-a$$ but is a really basic question that I think is at the heart of the matter and what many people never really answer.

I can see a few reasons for wanting a 951 that makes 400, 500, 600, etc rwhp. However not many of them are valid.

If you want to make impressive dyno charts its cheaper and easier to screw with the software settings of the dyno (just joking, but it has bee done). Hell, to increase rwhp on an inertia dyno, remove the rear brake rotors (common trick on bikes).

The other reason is because you want to accelerate like crazy. I submit that you don’t need 400, 500, or 600 hp to run around a roadrace track fast, and typically lower powered, more linear vehicles are easier to drive fast. Power isn’t all its cracked up to be on a road coarse. Wouldn’t embarrassing to have a 924S pass you on a road coarse when you are driving a 500rwhp 951? I have seen things just like that happening. To go fast around a road coarse, you are better off spending money just running the car.

Now if you want a drag king, the 951 isn’t the car for you. Yes, they can go well, but you are better off using a much different car. For drag racing, my personal choice would be something like a 5.0 or a Z28. Bang for the buck, you can’t beat them. A 951 is just too hard to setup to get off the line.

If you want a roll-on king, again, you can get a car that you can get a car that much cheaper for the same performance (or better) than a 951.

Lithium, you may not see eye o eye with me, but my experience has been that with a vehicle you have certain levels that you reach before you are spending too much money for too little performance gain. That is why a long time ago (when I thought that mustangs were fast and playing with them) I got into bikes. I still like fast cars, but for much less money I can go much faster on a bike. A 951 is not the best way to go really fast and also not cheap. The other problem that you get, is drivability. Many of the very high power cars aren’t very streetable, break down a lot, or require constant maintenance. I think that honestly, I good KKK turbo (K27) and get it dialed in, you will make 300-350rwhp on a 951. Anything more than that is possible, but it will not be as much fun (by fun I mean something that works all the time, isn’t too much of a maintenance nightmare, etc). I basically judge a streetable car as whether or not my wife can take the car and drive it any time, any way she wants and I don’t have to have a car trailer on standby. I think that level in a 951 is 300-350 rwhp. Other may disagree.

-Dana

rage2

Dana, I can sum up all of your concerns with 2 words.

It's fun.

rage2

Oh yea, my car is VERY streetable. Idles like a champ. Daily driven even in winter. -40C to +40C. Sounds stock until I go hard on it.

Duke

Although most poeple have valid points in this discussion I think it's a bit sad that almost everytime the big-hp discussion gets going people start talking about how these car's are not the best cars around for this purpose.
Why!?

Just because you want a really fast car it doesn't mean that you don't care about the car itself. Personally there is no way in hell I would get a Z28 for instance... That car and other similiar cars just aren't me.
So does that mean I need to lay my plans for big power aside?

Heck, even if you only cared about lap times around a course why would anyone get a nice, low milage 951!? How would it look if all hardcore suspension discussions would be full of posts like "Get another car, you got a nice Turbo with nice leather seats and air conditioning, your car isn't built for tracking".

I love the look of a 951 with the addition of a few items. Still I love the rush of acceleration. And at the same time I love razer sharp handling!!
And combining them in 1 car just seems like perfect solution, rather than getting 3 different cars for different purposes

And about cost... although I've spent the same amount on parts (not including labour) as on the car itself I still would have had trouble getting a new BMW 320 for the same money.. So I think it's pretty cheap

porshhhh951

John that sounds like it's going to be really really cool man. Thanks for your post, rage as always thanks for yours too. This will be interesting to see.

John with the stage 3 kit on 25-28psi and 104-114 octane race fuel with decent timing and prefect air/fuel being tuned by a pro what types of number's do you think would be possible on a stock 2.5ltr with headwork?

I know we are totally bench racing here but, **** it who care's this is too cool.

Also John I have one more quesiton. Say you ran into someone who didn't want to fool with standalone or tunning would it be just as reasonable to get the same results with the FQS tuned by someone like yourself or no?

I guess what I am trying to ask is....can people get this type of reliabilty and driveability that comes with a standalone without going standalone.

I mean you are talking 1000+bucks to get a decent one Add to that couple grand for the turbo. Add another grand on there for good measure and tunning along with misc stuff....and now your talking another $4000.00+ to get into this "new" world. Which I aint against...another 4-5k ontop of what I already have in my car performance wise aint a hard pill to swallow. Now if you come back and tell me you need 8-10k.....well that's another story altogether.

I am going to visit your site and see what's doin'. Does anyone know how chris's GT kits are coming along these day's? I pm'd him awhile back but, he hasent gotten back to me yet.

porshhhh951

Damn that Mo monitor looks cool as hell.

Damn I told myself no more money...... I could really use something like that...and with the help of someone who knows what the hell they are doing I might be able to learn myself.

790bucks.....hell that's well worth it. This is getting my mind into a bad place. Damn you Lithium.lol. Damn you to hell. I have a feeling this has started something that's going to be harzardos to my bank account and my supra purchase time table.

DanaT

“Although most poeple have valid points in this discussion I think it's a bit sad that almost everytime the big-hp discussion gets going people start talking about how these car's are not the best cars around for this purpose.
Why!?”

Duke,

The reason I say that there are better cars for different applications is because there are. Its not that you can’t make a 951 do these things, its just that it is cost prohibitive and/or not want you want in the end from the car.

I said that the 951 isn’t the car if you want to go drag racing. Let me explain why I say this.

Look at the 60ft times 951 normally run. They are bad. To get a street car in a decent range (1.6-1.8), you are looking at running M/T ET streets. Now, the 951 having IRS you will start having problems with CV joints. Next the transaxle may not be up to the job. Now, move on to gearing. If you want to do a R&P gear swap (lower is better for drag racing) you are looking at $2000 for the parts. For an 8.8 rear end you are looking at $250 and much simpler labor. Now onto weight transfer. You need as much body weight transfer to the rear to come off the line hard. That is good for drag racing, but to you want a ton of squat in your car? Onto power. You can take a basically stock 5.0l engine, bolt a Paxton (or vortec, or whatever you like) do some minor work to the engine, and for under $5000 be making an easy 500rwhp. Keep in mind that a turbo is also more difficult to launch consistently than a N/A or blown engine.

Also, and this is just me, but I would feel much more comfortable spraying the heck out of a 5.0L than a 951 (or even a 944) engine. Why? If I break something, I can have the 5.0L back together with a complete rebuild for $1000.

The 951 has its place, but for many applications you are better off starting with a different vehicle. Now for an overall balanced car, that makes good (but not stellar) power, handles good, looks nice, etc, the 951 is hard to beat.

-Dana