So who got smoked by the 944 V8?
09-30-2004, 04:10 AM
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Originally Posted by porshhhh951
I agree with kevin here. A broad tq and hp curve is key.
Take 10% of 480=48
which makes 5%=24
24+48=82crank hp loss @ 15%
Which would mean in theory if the new one's do have 480crank hp they would prolly put down 400 at the wheels. Now they are prolly more effecient than 15% perhaps 12%. That double with the fact that I also agree and they are underrated from the factory and that's were you see th4e 420-430rwhp dyno's.
In keeping the same way of thinking 450rwhp
10% of 450=45
which makes 5%=22.5
which makes 67.5crank hp @ 15% loss
So 67.5+450=517.5crank hp in therory. Are the new GT2's underrated by nearly 40hp? I don't know that's a strong statement. There are always a few ringer's in the mix. Some car's just seem to run better without any rhime or reason to it. I would venture to guess a 450rwhp completely stock GT2 is not the norm. Most of them would fall 10-20rwhp under that mark.
I would think giving the serious advantage's to the GT2 here you will atleast need to match the car's in peak hp. Ofcourse driver counts for quite alot and just because he does have a faster car doesn't mean he knows what he is doing...and in certain condition's you could end up beating him. Happens all the time a faster car loses to a slower one because of condition's or driver.
Take your 235rwhp 951 beating a 300rwhp c5 vette for instance. It was a vert and a auto i am sure....which helped....but, condition's play a large role in street races.
Take 10% of 480=48
which makes 5%=24
24+48=82crank hp loss @ 15%
Which would mean in theory if the new one's do have 480crank hp they would prolly put down 400 at the wheels. Now they are prolly more effecient than 15% perhaps 12%. That double with the fact that I also agree and they are underrated from the factory and that's were you see th4e 420-430rwhp dyno's.
In keeping the same way of thinking 450rwhp
10% of 450=45
which makes 5%=22.5
which makes 67.5crank hp @ 15% loss
So 67.5+450=517.5crank hp in therory. Are the new GT2's underrated by nearly 40hp? I don't know that's a strong statement. There are always a few ringer's in the mix. Some car's just seem to run better without any rhime or reason to it. I would venture to guess a 450rwhp completely stock GT2 is not the norm. Most of them would fall 10-20rwhp under that mark.
I would think giving the serious advantage's to the GT2 here you will atleast need to match the car's in peak hp. Ofcourse driver counts for quite alot and just because he does have a faster car doesn't mean he knows what he is doing...and in certain condition's you could end up beating him. Happens all the time a faster car loses to a slower one because of condition's or driver.
Take your 235rwhp 951 beating a 300rwhp c5 vette for instance. It was a vert and a auto i am sure....which helped....but, condition's play a large role in street races.
Back to school for you mate, you need to work on your maths.
I do agree with you, a standard spec 04 gt2 will put out aprox 415-425rwhp
To get 450rwhp you would need about 530 crank.
THe GT2 is easily modded (chip& exhaust) to 550 crank.
No matter how much power a 944 had the GT2 would still **** all over it, as has been said, its 15 years newer has much much better brakes and better traction. And it looks about 50 times better too.
Oh it Cost £125,000 too!!!!!!
09-30-2004, 04:35 AM
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Here is my modded GT-2. When I got it, it was a lowly 650 HP (crank) with 740 Nm of torque. It has since been further modified to 700 HP (crank) with 780 Nm of torque. Another version is now in Japan (Japanese Chief of Microsoft)with 750 on the crank and another engine is currently being built based on the prototype which delivered 850 HP on the crank.
The 951 is quick, it might give bang for the buck but guys come on, very few of you will ever get close to a GT-2 or a Carrera GT and none of you are going to touch the modified GT-2s.
I am hoping next year a Sportec modified GT-2 will be in the USA and maybe some of you will see up close and personal. There are only around 200 GT-2s in the USA so I doubt many of you have even seen one let alone gone up against one. Yes they cost significantly more than a 951 but that is not the point of this thread is it?
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4
GT-2
The 951 is quick, it might give bang for the buck but guys come on, very few of you will ever get close to a GT-2 or a Carrera GT and none of you are going to touch the modified GT-2s.
I am hoping next year a Sportec modified GT-2 will be in the USA and maybe some of you will see up close and personal. There are only around 200 GT-2s in the USA so I doubt many of you have even seen one let alone gone up against one. Yes they cost significantly more than a 951 but that is not the point of this thread is it?
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4
GT-2
09-30-2004, 04:38 AM
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Slim boy fat feel free to correct any of my math cal...it's like 2:30a.m. here and I am so tired I am falling asleep so I am heading to bed.
09-30-2004, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by porshhhh951
Take your 235rwhp 951 beating a 300rwhp c5 vette for instance. It was a vert and a auto i am sure....which helped....but, condition's play a large role in street races.
EDIT: by the way, I think the story about DFAST I remember was that his car totally blew by a 996TT at his low boost setting after the guy gave him a condescending attitude when he pulled up to say 'hi.' I have no doubt in my mind his car would do the same to a GT2 when on the regular boost setting.
09-30-2004, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by FSAEracer03
Hey now John, now spoiling my victory. I'm still bragging about it here, mkay?
EDIT: by the way, I think the story about DFAST I remember was that his car totally blew by a 996TT at his low boost setting after the guy gave him a condescending attitude when he pulled up to say 'hi.' I have no doubt in my mind his car would do the same to a GT2 when on the regular boost setting.
EDIT: by the way, I think the story about DFAST I remember was that his car totally blew by a 996TT at his low boost setting after the guy gave him a condescending attitude when he pulled up to say 'hi.' I have no doubt in my mind his car would do the same to a GT2 when on the regular boost setting.
What makes you think all Gt2's are stock? Setting aside the initial cost of the vehicle the Gt2 gains after ECU and exhaust ~ 500 whp ( $5000) , plus turbo's ($ 5000 - 7000) 550 whp , add another 25 - 35 whp for racegas and very agressive timing.
So for less than 15 k you have an almost 600 whp drysump motor , half of the car above and I do not think you want to get into chassis/brake dynamics of the Gt2.
Yes the 951 is a capable car, it's cheap and you can get good power out of them , but let's get back to earth and reality and it is not a Gt2 killer, period.
09-30-2004, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by pole position
You keep mentioning one of the most powerful 951 in the country , an all out effort of Powerhaus , racegas , all stars are lined up correctly and approx 30 k plus motorcost alone. Good.
What makes you think all Gt2's are stock? Setting aside the initial cost of the vehicle the Gt2 gains after ECU and exhaust ~ 500 whp ( $5000) , plus turbo's ($ 5000 - 7000) 550 whp , add another 25 - 35 whp for racegas and very agressive timing.
So for less than 15 k you have an almost 600 whp drysump motor , half of the car above and I do not think you want to get into chassis/brake dynamics of the Gt2.
Yes the 951 is a capable car, it's cheap and you can get good power out of them , but let's get back to earth and reality and it is not a Gt2 killer, period.
What makes you think all Gt2's are stock? Setting aside the initial cost of the vehicle the Gt2 gains after ECU and exhaust ~ 500 whp ( $5000) , plus turbo's ($ 5000 - 7000) 550 whp , add another 25 - 35 whp for racegas and very agressive timing.
So for less than 15 k you have an almost 600 whp drysump motor , half of the car above and I do not think you want to get into chassis/brake dynamics of the Gt2.
Yes the 951 is a capable car, it's cheap and you can get good power out of them , but let's get back to earth and reality and it is not a Gt2 killer, period.
But..... his money, his car, nothing wrong with that
09-30-2004, 06:23 PM
#68
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200K???
He got robbed
I mean, his car was bad ***, but I am very sure myself and mech. and many others in here could have gotton a lot more performance for a 200K investment in a 951.
He got robbed
I mean, his car was bad ***, but I am very sure myself and mech. and many others in here could have gotton a lot more performance for a 200K investment in a 951.
09-30-2004, 06:54 PM
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I don't believe he actually had 200k invested in the car. When doing a charity you have a right off as well as benefits. Lot's of fund rasier's pay the beneficiary what their cost would be then the rest go's to the cause. By him saying he had 200k invested he could have gotten serious compensation as well as done some good in the world. Many charities and fund raiser's are done this way. Now I aint saying that's the case but, 200k in a 951 is absolutely ludicris. Everyone here knows it.
You could build a 3.0ltr 16v 968turbo S motor and body from the ground up for 70k. Maybe over the course of 15 years of ownership he had 200k in it....which is still a very hard number to believe.
Take it for what it is. I think he is a nice guy but, who the heck really knows. All I know is that would be the most money anyone in the entire world has ever spent on a 951. For 200k you could build a monster on a 996 twin turbo and still have money to buy a truck and trailer to pull it with.
You could build a 3.0ltr 16v 968turbo S motor and body from the ground up for 70k. Maybe over the course of 15 years of ownership he had 200k in it....which is still a very hard number to believe.
Take it for what it is. I think he is a nice guy but, who the heck really knows. All I know is that would be the most money anyone in the entire world has ever spent on a 951. For 200k you could build a monster on a 996 twin turbo and still have money to buy a truck and trailer to pull it with.
10-01-2004, 02:12 AM
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Originally Posted by pole position
You keep mentioning one of the most powerful 951 in the country , an all out effort of Powerhaus , racegas , all stars are lined up correctly and approx 30 k plus motorcost alone. Good.
What makes you think all Gt2's are stock? Setting aside the initial cost of the vehicle the Gt2 gains after ECU and exhaust ~ 500 whp ( $5000) , plus turbo's ($ 5000 - 7000) 550 whp , add another 25 - 35 whp for racegas and very agressive timing.
So for less than 15 k you have an almost 600 whp drysump motor , half of the car above and I do not think you want to get into chassis/brake dynamics of the Gt2.
Yes the 951 is a capable car, it's cheap and you can get good power out of them , but let's get back to earth and reality and it is not a Gt2 killer, period.
What makes you think all Gt2's are stock? Setting aside the initial cost of the vehicle the Gt2 gains after ECU and exhaust ~ 500 whp ( $5000) , plus turbo's ($ 5000 - 7000) 550 whp , add another 25 - 35 whp for racegas and very agressive timing.
So for less than 15 k you have an almost 600 whp drysump motor , half of the car above and I do not think you want to get into chassis/brake dynamics of the Gt2.
Yes the 951 is a capable car, it's cheap and you can get good power out of them , but let's get back to earth and reality and it is not a Gt2 killer, period.
The GT2 is a great car, and for those willing to put the money down for it, ad maybe some mods, it's wonderful. But for those who don't have that money to spend on a house, let alone a car, the 951 poses a serious advantage to it for $$$/dollar. The 951 street-terrors boasting 400whp and weighing in at less than 3k lbs. are far greater than the GT2 in justification to the wife and self. In the end, you're getting marginal benefits for multuples of cash. I love the GT2, don't get me wrong, I'd just never buy one even if I had the money
As far as this or that GT2 being stock or not, with most of the new Porsches purchased that I have come across. 95+% are stock.
10-01-2004, 05:44 AM
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With 200K you could purchase a great low mileage second hand GT-2 plus give yourself between 55k and 95k for some serious modifications.
With 70k you could purchase a high mileage early 964 C2 or C4, ship it to RUF and have returned a 2600lb 425 HP RCT Evo set up for road and track use.
I think my understanding of bang for the buck has gone out of the window using cars into which 200K has been invested used as examples of GT-2 killers.
I did not realise that it was the same car used in the examples above that was the one offered in that charity raffle here on Rennlist until very recently. The raffle I remember said over 200k invested in this particular car so I have believe that this was true and over 200k was spent on it.
There is no question when the 951 came out that it was and remains an excellent high performance car. 230 - 250HP was not to be sneezed at then or now. They were not cheap either, the last of the 1991 Turbos were offered for only a few thousand DM below the 911 of the time and cracked 100,000 DM.
However it is becoming clearer just from this thread that the money required to bring them up to "Believing the the 951 can beat every other performance car on the road" status is waaaay beyond what I would consider bang for the buck.
200K into a car which sells for 5 to 12k in stock or lightly modified form is not bang for the buck spending.
I am sure that 200K would purchase a house in many places of the USA
I am not sure my wife would approve of 200K into a 12K car either.
I am interested in trying to understand what is considered bang for the buck in the 951 world. How many times X purchase price is considered bang for the buck? And how many times X purchase price is called "Pure Passion"?
I sincerely respect "Pure Passion" and I know many people (myself included in the early days) blessed or cursed (depending who you talk to) with it. However where is the line between Value for Money (bang for the buck) and Pure Passion (More HP! More HP!) drawn?
Ciao,
Adrian
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GT-2
With 70k you could purchase a high mileage early 964 C2 or C4, ship it to RUF and have returned a 2600lb 425 HP RCT Evo set up for road and track use.
I think my understanding of bang for the buck has gone out of the window using cars into which 200K has been invested used as examples of GT-2 killers.
I did not realise that it was the same car used in the examples above that was the one offered in that charity raffle here on Rennlist until very recently. The raffle I remember said over 200k invested in this particular car so I have believe that this was true and over 200k was spent on it.
There is no question when the 951 came out that it was and remains an excellent high performance car. 230 - 250HP was not to be sneezed at then or now. They were not cheap either, the last of the 1991 Turbos were offered for only a few thousand DM below the 911 of the time and cracked 100,000 DM.
However it is becoming clearer just from this thread that the money required to bring them up to "Believing the the 951 can beat every other performance car on the road" status is waaaay beyond what I would consider bang for the buck.
200K into a car which sells for 5 to 12k in stock or lightly modified form is not bang for the buck spending.
I am sure that 200K would purchase a house in many places of the USA
I am not sure my wife would approve of 200K into a 12K car either.
I am interested in trying to understand what is considered bang for the buck in the 951 world. How many times X purchase price is considered bang for the buck? And how many times X purchase price is called "Pure Passion"?
I sincerely respect "Pure Passion" and I know many people (myself included in the early days) blessed or cursed (depending who you talk to
) with it. However where is the line between Value for Money (bang for the buck) and Pure Passion (More HP! More HP!) drawn?Ciao,
Adrian
964C4
GT-2
10-01-2004, 06:01 AM
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Adrian don't get it twisted. 200k is not the norm and I still don't believe that number. The car was used for research and development for powerhaus the company. So I guess they are taking into account all of the hours spent on the car and different parts used altogether over time. Not to mention the car as it sat in final form.
No one in the world spends that kind of money on a 951 and if you think it takes 200k in a 951 to beat a GT2 you are smoking some serious crack.
You could build a 600hp monster for 30k. Heck maybe even less. You could build something special like a 968turbo conversion for around 70k.
Oh and if I had 70k to spend on a porsche...I would buy a used 00'-01' Twin turbo 996 used clean with low miles. I just had a friend by one for 79k its a 01 model and that's alot of car for not alot of money. I don't see myself ever paying full retail for any car ever in my life. When I have the money to buy my 911 turbo I will buy one a year or two old clean and still under warrenty for a fraction of the cost of a new one.
120k vs 79k and still comes with a factory backing mantaince program as well as support. I guess if you are worth 20 million then who care's but, for the rest of us....I will be about bang for the buck even when I am buying a 911 turbo. It's all about how you look at things.
No one in the world spends that kind of money on a 951 and if you think it takes 200k in a 951 to beat a GT2 you are smoking some serious crack.
You could build a 600hp monster for 30k. Heck maybe even less. You could build something special like a 968turbo conversion for around 70k.
Oh and if I had 70k to spend on a porsche...I would buy a used 00'-01' Twin turbo 996 used clean with low miles. I just had a friend by one for 79k its a 01 model and that's alot of car for not alot of money. I don't see myself ever paying full retail for any car ever in my life. When I have the money to buy my 911 turbo I will buy one a year or two old clean and still under warrenty for a fraction of the cost of a new one.
120k vs 79k and still comes with a factory backing mantaince program as well as support. I guess if you are worth 20 million then who care's but, for the rest of us....I will be about bang for the buck even when I am buying a 911 turbo. It's all about how you look at things.
10-01-2004, 12:18 PM
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Dear Thom,
Yes I have had it since the end of July. It has been put away for winter now though. Roll on next spring.
Dear John,
I know there is a tuner in the USA offering 750 HP out of a 993 3.6 litre engine for 55K.
Who is offering 600 HP out of a 2.5 litre 4 cylinder for less than 30K?
I have also been looking around at the 951 modification places out of interest and I see that Powerhaus is offering a 2.8L conversion which they claim provides an engine more powerful than a standard 2002 GT-2. No price though. They are claiming +400 HP at the rear wheels at 1.3 bar.
They are also offering a new 3.0L with 425 HP at the rear wheels.
Here are some figures I found. I am not sure but this car may be owned by a Rennlister.
Dyno Information (2.5L) :
280rwhp - 12psi pump fuel (Mustang Dyno)
380rwhp - 20psi pump/MS103 mix fuel
438rwhp - 25psi MS103 fuel
460rwhp - 28psi MS103 fuel
Dyno Information (2.8L) :
323rwhp - 12psi pump fuel (Mustang Dyno)
349rwhp - 15psi pump fuel (Mustang Dyno, approx 394rwhp Dynojet)
Interesting subject.
What is the maximum fuel pressure you can have on a 951 and genuinely say that it is still a daily driver and be comfortable to drive around town?
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4
GT-2
PS: The maximum power output I have personally seen for a 3.6 GT-2 engine is 1200 HP. The output had to be reduced to 850 HP to retain some level of comfortable driveability and reliability.
Yes I have had it since the end of July. It has been put away for winter now though. Roll on next spring.
Dear John,
I know there is a tuner in the USA offering 750 HP out of a 993 3.6 litre engine for 55K.
Who is offering 600 HP out of a 2.5 litre 4 cylinder for less than 30K?
I have also been looking around at the 951 modification places out of interest and I see that Powerhaus is offering a 2.8L conversion which they claim provides an engine more powerful than a standard 2002 GT-2. No price though. They are claiming +400 HP at the rear wheels at 1.3 bar.
They are also offering a new 3.0L with 425 HP at the rear wheels.
Here are some figures I found. I am not sure but this car may be owned by a Rennlister.
Dyno Information (2.5L) :
280rwhp - 12psi pump fuel (Mustang Dyno)
380rwhp - 20psi pump/MS103 mix fuel
438rwhp - 25psi MS103 fuel
460rwhp - 28psi MS103 fuel
Dyno Information (2.8L) :
323rwhp - 12psi pump fuel (Mustang Dyno)
349rwhp - 15psi pump fuel (Mustang Dyno, approx 394rwhp Dynojet)
Interesting subject.
What is the maximum fuel pressure you can have on a 951 and genuinely say that it is still a daily driver and be comfortable to drive around town?
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4
GT-2
PS: The maximum power output I have personally seen for a 3.6 GT-2 engine is 1200 HP. The output had to be reduced to 850 HP to retain some level of comfortable driveability and reliability.
Last edited by Adrian; 10-01-2004 at 01:03 PM.
10-01-2004, 01:18 PM
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beautiful car adrian, any under the hood pics? i agree that many 951 owners seem to have very unrealistic expectations of what a modded 951 can do. at the same time i can't see anything else that comes close in a 'bang for the buck' comparison as long as you keep it below 400rwhp.