vogel

My design is inspired by the recent technology used in the import performance world particularly drag racing. Grab virtually any of the import magazines and you'll see honda's, ecotechs, zetec's, subaru's, etc... going to this similar closed deck style sleeve. Darton has coined the term MID sleeves, which stands for Modular Integrated Deck Sleeves. Reportedly Ben Ma from AEBS was one of the first todo it, some say that Eagle did it first. It really doesn't matter. LA Sleeve makes them too, but they all call them something different. Now people are doing to the LS1 engine and the Ford's, as well as any open deck import.

My sleeves are not a shelf item, i designed them myself and they were not built by any of the big west coast sleeve people. I spoke with some of them, but decided to go elsewhere.

The flats are to allow the sleeves to come within a few thousanths of each other in what is called "siamesing." This process requires very accurate CNC machining of the block to receive the sleeve, not just the typical "dial-in on the bore" job done by the average engine rebuilding shop. It allows me to use blocks that have damaged cylinders and had previously been considered junk, it also allows very stable, big bores.

vogel

No deck plate in my design. The deck is integrated. No O-rings at the bottom either. Interference fit for seal is king. Not for the faint of heart machinest. The top will not move, it's supported on the stud bosses. The holes are for water to reach the gasket surface.

This my "eggshell" engine. The WORST possible scenario. An '83 NA block. The thinest parent block I can go with. If I can keep it together and sealed up, it only gets better from here. A 3.0 litre block would be king. I'm still running with .125" ductile cylinder wall at the thinest part of my sleeve. I could take the bore on this "eggshell" safely to .080" and go over 3.0L with the 2.5L stroke.

Much debate in the integrated deck sleeve world exists on the "correct" way of doing this. Believe me, i've talked to and seen most of them. It's pretty new technology. I've been at the PRI show for the last 5 years and have watched this technology grow, everyone has a different idea. The import drag racing scene has pushed this technology farther than anyone could have imagined it even 5 years ago.

BC

That picture is worth a thousand words Vogel, and I appreciate your putting it here.

You are doing the CNC machining on the bores for the sleeves yourself as well?

You want some extra work? I may have a few 928 customers wanting to talk to you.

BC

So you have removed the whole tower except for that what we see, and will be interference fitting those wet sleeves (interlocking) into the block. Nice.

Sam Lin

Vogel, very good design.

Sam

BoostGuy951

This is great.

How Big could you go with a normal 944 block? Or a 3.0?

TonyG

You would have to have a deck plate up top to lock in and support the top of the sleeves. That's fine. (since there is no upper bore left)

But the bottom of what's left of the cylinders is not nearly thick enough if you have an od of 113mm (approx). Look how paper thin they are.

How do you plan to support this?

TonyG

Tony

WOW..great topic and i can speak for many, thanks for sharing.

..but .....this is way beyond the capabilities of my Dremel tool and bench vise at this point.
Ill just watch
I do have a stroker crank for my 928, so i will be watching with great intrest on how this all pans out.

You go Brendan!

Danno

"You would have to have a deck plate up top to lock in and support the top of the sleeves. That's fine. (since there is no upper bore left)"

The top of the sleeves are supported on four corners by the stud bosses. You can see a little cutout shelf on the bare block above. It's a tight press-fit so there won't be any X-Y lateral movement of the sleeves. Then the head presses down to keep vertical movement to minimum. I'm sure Vogel as a certain special number he uses for the height of the sleeves above the surrounding deck to give the headgasket extra clamping pressure on the sleeves. Good job!

TonyG

So what's to support the bottom of the sleeves? That's the question to which I asked.

The top is obvious, although without a deck plate, the reliability is questionable at best. You cannot support these sleeves like you would in the blocks in which they were made for (Honda & Ford 4.6)

Those sleeves were made for engines that have very different structural characteristics with respect to the block than do the 951/968 blocks, thus where the Honda or Ford engines (which those sleeves were specifically made for by Darton) can get away w/o the deck plates, the 951/968 blocks cannot.... at least not with that config.

And that leaves a mandatory deck plate... but again... the bottom of the block, that will hold the sleeves in the x-y axis are paper thin.

Lastly... using the head surface to clamp down the sleeve, is not acceptable. Throw out that calculation. These heads lift so easily it's not funny due to the studs stretching, the threads in the bottom of the bottom of the block rolling, the head flexing, etc... To think that any use of the cylinder head as a structural supporting member of the sleeves would be a big mistake.


TonyG

m42racer

It does matter how this is done. But what I like about this, is that its offered. Just think, it was only about 6 months ago, we 944T owners had nothing like this, or the EFI systems offered etc. Now some serious companies are offering us some really good choices. I think this is the important factor here!

As for how the Liners are fitted, use and testing will show. We have 2 choices. Use the Deck plate version offered by PD, or this one. It all comes down to what we individuals feel more comfortable. I have choosen to go with the Deck Plate, as I saw just how much these Block flex. Even with the Head bolted down, we have seen how much these block flex. That is one of the culprits that causes the H/G to fail. The movement between the Head and block and the lifting etc. As Tony says, its about locking everything together. These blocks are apparantly very bad for movement. In line 4 cyl, big bore, Alumimin, flexible Girdle. It all works against us. Making the whole block really stiff, with inserts/Liners is the key. From the blocks I have seen, its extremely thin at the Btm. In fact, on the 968 Blocks I have seen the big bore Liners fitted too, they break thro each end of the Block.

Still, the upside is the fact we now have more choices. Keep them coming. Good work Vogel!

Alan C.

I like the idea. Vogel took a look around inside the box and decided to explore said box from the outside. He has a test bed with which to check his ideas.

I look forward to hearing about his results.

Tim Murphy

Here is a picture of my 928 block with the cylinders machined out.

We did two of these and found a crack through one of the mains on one engine so we decided to set the project aside for now. This was going to be a wet sleave, with a step at the bottom of the steel cylinder and then clamped by the head.

BC

Thats a great Pic Tim. Thanks for putting that on here.


TonyG - Your block build-up - Do you have any more pics? Can you simply put the pics back up from the other thread? This is a great searching thread for this topic. You have shown that you have a dry sleeve, but It is not clear how far down the top of the bore tower is cut to recieve the LARGER OD of the dry sleeve. I know that valley engine, who installs LA sleeves, goes down two inches, and then JB-welds the sleeve into the existing bore.

I think that if you were to add a deck plate to that, you would have a very stiff engine.

vogel

To all of you, thank you for your words of encouragement and critical questions. As you may note, i'm relatively new to posting on rennlist, however i've been watching for a couple years now! All of your comments are an immeasurable wealth of help! I'm a manufacturing engineer and machinest by trade, a porsche owner by hobby.

As i said before, this is the worst case scenario engine, that's how i start and develop a research program. As for the the thin walls at the bottom which will accomodate the interference fitment of the wet sleeves, they are thin, but also tall and allow for a good amount of surface contact and water seal area. If you do your research, many of the "other" import engines are working with far far far less desirable situations concerning the surface areas and availability of material to mate and contact with. People have messed with Hard Blok and other jacket filler materials to stiffen these areas also. If that is required in the future, it's an avenue i will entertain. I can also reduce the OD of the intereference fit section of the sleeve to allow for more parent material left in the block. I can also go larger bores with plenty of cylinder wall.

In the past few weeks, i've had some very enlightening and inspiring conversations with Jon Milledge. For the most part he seems to like what i'm doing, he suggested that i use a 3.0liter block and do the same thing to create the ultimate combo of strength and size in the future. I think i will.

I know this next statement may make some of you cringe, but I think some in the porsche 944 performance crowd would find the technology being used in the honda and other import scenes to be very enlighting and inspiring. You must remember that due to the sheer numbers of people in the honda tuning, that their technology will advance at a much quicker rate. Sure there's a lot of hype and chrome and anodized crap in that scene, but that crap is in all motorsports, it always has and always will be. I'm just hoping to sort through it and make some big power! Thanks again.