Wastegate
12-21-2003, 12:17 PM
#31
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Sami 951. The difference between the Tial 35 mm and 38mm, is teh size of the valve (3mm) and the top of the wastegate is bigger for a bigger spring.But they both work very well for our cars.
Actually, this is incorrect. The valve is bigger and the seat is bigger on the 38mm but the actuator is the same size. The 40mm also uses the same size actuator as the 38mm and the obsolete 35mm. The 35, 38, 40 and 46mm wastegates all use the same springs. They are interchangable from one wastegate to another.
Actually, this is incorrect. The valve is bigger and the seat is bigger on the 38mm but the actuator is the same size. The 40mm also uses the same size actuator as the 38mm and the obsolete 35mm. The 35, 38, 40 and 46mm wastegates all use the same springs. They are interchangable from one wastegate to another.
12-21-2003, 01:32 PM
#33
This post feels like ground hog day... If your design was so unique, then why not patent it? Its just a rectangular piece of metal with holes in it that can vary little due to the shape of the stock flanges... geeez get over it. My Swiss, good on you for offering your own product, we have already seen the extremely high prices of those flanges come down, if only periodically to start with. Keep up the good work.
While I have nothing againt Myswiss, even bought vacuum stuff from him, if this was the attitude of people on the board our "innovators" are going to go away. Why make something if someone else is just going to copy it? I have long been an advocate of the hard pipes selling for a lot less, this is because they can be made extremely cheap (depending on what metal is used). A few of us have pointed out that they can be made for around 50 dollars (if you dont need the Godzilla BOV port). However, none of us has gone into business by snagging SFRs design and heading to the exhaust shop or fabricator.
Tim and others have to amoritize the cost of the R&D over so much quantity, by copying their design (or making it better, I dont know how you do that with 2 metal adapter plates) you are making it less likely they will introduce new products later (where is the incentive?). Competition is good for all of us because it drives costs down, but if you have to "copy" someones design and sell it as your own you are hurting all of us.
Tim/Lindsey/anyone else - when are my hard pipes going to be down in the 100-150 range?????
Does anyone have pictures of MySwiss adapter plates?? If so I will pop up pics of the SFR plates and we can decide for ourselves.
NZ951 - patenting a product like that with a small business is not worthwhile. You generally do not have the resources to fight the patent infringement and it is hard to prove in any case.
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While I have nothing againt Myswiss, even bought vacuum stuff from him, if this was the attitude of people on the board our "innovators" are going to go away. Why make something if someone else is just going to copy it? I have long been an advocate of the hard pipes selling for a lot less, this is because they can be made extremely cheap (depending on what metal is used). A few of us have pointed out that they can be made for around 50 dollars (if you dont need the Godzilla BOV port). However, none of us has gone into business by snagging SFRs design and heading to the exhaust shop or fabricator.
Tim and others have to amoritize the cost of the R&D over so much quantity, by copying their design (or making it better, I dont know how you do that with 2 metal adapter plates) you are making it less likely they will introduce new products later (where is the incentive?). Competition is good for all of us because it drives costs down, but if you have to "copy" someones design and sell it as your own you are hurting all of us.
Tim/Lindsey/anyone else - when are my hard pipes going to be down in the 100-150 range?????
Does anyone have pictures of MySwiss adapter plates?? If so I will pop up pics of the SFR plates and we can decide for ourselves.
NZ951 - patenting a product like that with a small business is not worthwhile. You generally do not have the resources to fight the patent infringement and it is hard to prove in any case.
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12-21-2003, 05:37 PM
#35
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Good point Matt H. But I would like to clarify something,which is being repeated and was never founded on cold hard facts... The plates that we sell, were (and are not) copies of SFR adapter plates.
Tim keeps on saying that we copied them, when in fact it all started when we installed these plates on someone else's car. During the installation of these adapter plates we noticed a few thing we could improve upon,such as making them asymmetrical, for better and easier fitment. The plates are also CNC machine for more precise taped holes, which again, makes it easier to install. And most important of all, we could make them affordable.
If Tim wants to call this copying, then he might as well stop doing what he's been doing for all these years; improving upon Porsche's parts and other tuner's parts (such as the A Arms he was working on at one time). Was he trying to copy the Charlie Arm(I don't think so)?? Or just making another A Arm available at a cheaper price. Cause lets face it ,the Charlie A Arm doesen't need to be stonger, but it certainly would be nice, if they were more affordable!!!!!!
Tim,you can stop your accusations,cause you never saw my adapter plates,and if you did, you certainly would notice that they are not the same. Therefor I did not copy them!!!!
I never even bought any products from SFR,cause I could not justify the price!!!!!
If we never were inspired to do better ,by other people's products; we would still be using the stock wastegate, instead of the Tial or using Autothority chips instead of Guru's,Weltmeister,Vitesse,Etc.
I don't think your conduct is worth an appolagy. Face it, your not doing business in Russia.
People will find a way of doing things better and cheaper eventualy.
That is my final reply,to this nonsence. Get over it
Tim keeps on saying that we copied them, when in fact it all started when we installed these plates on someone else's car. During the installation of these adapter plates we noticed a few thing we could improve upon,such as making them asymmetrical, for better and easier fitment. The plates are also CNC machine for more precise taped holes, which again, makes it easier to install. And most important of all, we could make them affordable.
If Tim wants to call this copying, then he might as well stop doing what he's been doing for all these years; improving upon Porsche's parts and other tuner's parts (such as the A Arms he was working on at one time). Was he trying to copy the Charlie Arm(I don't think so)?? Or just making another A Arm available at a cheaper price. Cause lets face it ,the Charlie A Arm doesen't need to be stonger, but it certainly would be nice, if they were more affordable!!!!!!
Tim,you can stop your accusations,cause you never saw my adapter plates,and if you did, you certainly would notice that they are not the same. Therefor I did not copy them!!!!
I never even bought any products from SFR,cause I could not justify the price!!!!!
If we never were inspired to do better ,by other people's products; we would still be using the stock wastegate, instead of the Tial or using Autothority chips instead of Guru's,Weltmeister,Vitesse,Etc.
I don't think your conduct is worth an appolagy. Face it, your not doing business in Russia.
People will find a way of doing things better and cheaper eventualy.
That is my final reply,to this nonsence. Get over it
12-21-2003, 06:04 PM
#36
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To patent something you have to prove that there is some innovative depth in the product, it can't be something that is to obvius and trivial.
I have not seen MySwiss or Tim's flanges, but my guess as an engineer is that they are plates, about 3/8"-1/2" thick with Tial pattern bolt holes drilled through and Porsche wg pattern bottomed and threaded holes. Maybe there is a groove or a slightly raised face to improve sealing. If this is the case where is the innovation in that? I would perhaps need 15-30 minutes under the car to check out the wg position but I guess that I would come up with the design I just described. If I did and then started to sell them, would I be a thief? Or if I started making hard pipes? As there probably aren't so many ways to do it I'm sure they would have some similarity with Tim's even if I never have seen his. Is that a theft? And if I had seen Tim's in a picture before I started making mine would that be a theft. And if Tim's have some resemblance with Porsche's original hard pipe, did he steal the design?
As I said, I have not seen the flanges so if they are very complicated, things might come in a different perspective.
I'm strongly against people who steals and makes money on other peoples work and innovations but there has to be some kind of innovation or some amount of work in a design before it can be considered a theft.
Where is the incentive to develop new products if you can manufacture a product, with nearly no development cost, and sell it with 200-300% profit?
I don't think that there are so many new innovations in the performance part aftermarket. Isn't the whole idea of tuning to take someone else's design and improve it? How many buy only genuine Porsche, or whatever brand of car, spare parts? After all one could argue that aftermarket spare parts are a theft.
Tomas
EDIT: I started writing this before MySwiss last post came up. I see that we write some things that are very similar. Since my post arrived after his, am I a thief stealing his opinions?
I have not seen MySwiss or Tim's flanges, but my guess as an engineer is that they are plates, about 3/8"-1/2" thick with Tial pattern bolt holes drilled through and Porsche wg pattern bottomed and threaded holes. Maybe there is a groove or a slightly raised face to improve sealing. If this is the case where is the innovation in that? I would perhaps need 15-30 minutes under the car to check out the wg position but I guess that I would come up with the design I just described. If I did and then started to sell them, would I be a thief? Or if I started making hard pipes? As there probably aren't so many ways to do it I'm sure they would have some similarity with Tim's even if I never have seen his. Is that a theft? And if I had seen Tim's in a picture before I started making mine would that be a theft. And if Tim's have some resemblance with Porsche's original hard pipe, did he steal the design?
As I said, I have not seen the flanges so if they are very complicated, things might come in a different perspective.
I'm strongly against people who steals and makes money on other peoples work and innovations but there has to be some kind of innovation or some amount of work in a design before it can be considered a theft.
Where is the incentive to develop new products if you can manufacture a product, with nearly no development cost, and sell it with 200-300% profit?
I don't think that there are so many new innovations in the performance part aftermarket. Isn't the whole idea of tuning to take someone else's design and improve it? How many buy only genuine Porsche, or whatever brand of car, spare parts? After all one could argue that aftermarket spare parts are a theft.
Tomas
EDIT: I started writing this before MySwiss last post came up. I see that we write some things that are very similar. Since my post arrived after his, am I a thief stealing his opinions?
12-21-2003, 07:19 PM
#37
Race Director
My point has been made, you can not patent something this trivial. Innovation is not reduced by others improving/reproducing their designs, its called second mover advantage. The innovator, has to keep competing on some basis, maybe through distribution channels, price, or through reputation for example. We could apply the same convoluted logic (sorry but it is) my Matt H to nearly "every other" product ever made.
12-21-2003, 07:38 PM
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You are right. It's not rocket science, to build these damm plates. It just takes a bit of time and tools to build the first set correctly. Afterwards, it's just a question of progarmming the CNC, to replicate the first set. The cost is not as low as i would like it to be, but I was still able to bring down the price on this product.
12-21-2003, 10:09 PM
#39
NZ951, you missed my point completely. Try re-reading. I said that IF products are copied and created more cheaply (no R&D), that is bad for all of us. New innovation is good for the group as a whole.
MySwiss - would you please just picture your plates, we could end these arguments once and for all. If they are that much different then EVERYONE will go...ahhhh.... I see the difference.
You know I have nothing against you or your products.
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MySwiss - would you please just picture your plates, we could end these arguments once and for all. If they are that much different then EVERYONE will go...ahhhh.... I see the difference.
You know I have nothing against you or your products.
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12-22-2003, 12:31 AM
#40
Race Director
And you seemingly missed mine. Copied products are good for all of us. If there was only one product of everything, there would be a false monopoly for every producer of anything that has any market. Microsoft has copied many of its products, including windows... if I remember correctly. And look at the wonderful products it now produces. Well, maybe that is a bas example. How about Dr Porsche copying the idea of a car?
12-22-2003, 10:44 AM
#41
NZ - what you are advocating is nothing more than pirating! You are saying that a COPY of Windows called "NZ951 O.S." is a NEW product and that is good. MS "stole" DOS is you like but they turned it into something it wasnt originally. DR Porsche didnt steal the design for the 356 (though it is certainly similar to a Karmann Ghia).
If I buy, say a fuel rail from Lindsey, take it to a fabricator and put my name on it and sell it as my own that is not "good" for anyone (except me). If I buy that same product, and say, hey I can make this better by doing this, and I can make it cheaper, then great, THAT benefits everyone. By make it better I dont mean anodize it red instead of blue but; rather, determine that the product can be made better by; I dont know, increasing flow characteristics, which would have to be backed up with data, then that is great for the group.
The argument can be solved in a matter of seconds (BTW - I did not pass judgement on MySwiss, maybe he has done the above) by posting pictures of the two side by side. I have offered to post pictures of the SFR plates, someone needs to do the same with the other plates. Then as a group we can all decide for ourselves.
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If I buy, say a fuel rail from Lindsey, take it to a fabricator and put my name on it and sell it as my own that is not "good" for anyone (except me). If I buy that same product, and say, hey I can make this better by doing this, and I can make it cheaper, then great, THAT benefits everyone. By make it better I dont mean anodize it red instead of blue but; rather, determine that the product can be made better by; I dont know, increasing flow characteristics, which would have to be backed up with data, then that is great for the group.
The argument can be solved in a matter of seconds (BTW - I did not pass judgement on MySwiss, maybe he has done the above) by posting pictures of the two side by side. I have offered to post pictures of the SFR plates, someone needs to do the same with the other plates. Then as a group we can all decide for ourselves.
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12-22-2003, 12:19 PM
#42
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They are just some plates that haves holes for the stock piping and the wastegate tapped into them.They also has a counterbore for the dumtube so that is can seal properly.It is not rocket science by any means.
My big problem is that nobody but myself has come up with anything close to these plates. For 15 years nobody thought of and executed this relatively simple idea! So maybe it wasnt that simple of an idea, afterall! Huntley Racing had some adaptor plates at one time but they were completely different and were selling for $350 a set.We made our plates and brought them to market for almost half the price. This was about four years ago. The one thing we didnt do was copy their design. Instead we improved upon the idea.We created something entirely different that served the same function. Myswiss didnt do this. He just copied our plates directly. The fact is that you cant change the SFR plates much from our existing design. You can give them a different shape and use different thickness of material but that is it. This is what Myswiss did. Nothing more and nothing less. This is why Myswiss is so hesitant to post pictures of his plates because then it will be proven that all he did was knock our plates off. Without a doubt, Piracy!
Now I wouldnt get my panties in an uproar if it were say intercooler pipes or something to that effect.The fact is though that there are technical drawings and this is a machined part. It is not some pipes welded together. For example.... it would be like us buying some camber plates,fuel rail,solid motor mount, etc..... and then dropping them off at the CNC shop to be duplicated. This is so wrong yet almost everyone on this thread is basically advocating this! It makes me sick to my stomach to see this! I always assumed there was a mutual respect on this list and if a lister gets wronged, everyone will come to their side and make it right. Apparently this is not the thinking here anymore. I guess the current state of mind is.....knock it off and sell it cheap because we dont have alot of cash to spend.
The funny thing is that situtations similiar to this can and will occur in YOUR normal life. It is like a co-worker stealing your idea and hard work and then getting your raise for it! It is like your classmate cheating on their test by copying yours and getting a good grade for it. This is not just about parts here. This is about integrity and morals. What Myswiss did was show no integrity or morals, whatsoever. Now there our people here applauding him. Unbeleivable! It makes me sad to say I own a Porsche.
To everyone reading this......I know everybody on the list is not like this. In fact, it is quite the opposite! There are many, many, stand-up guys here. They are many people who do value morals and integrity and this post was not directed at you.
My big problem is that nobody but myself has come up with anything close to these plates. For 15 years nobody thought of and executed this relatively simple idea! So maybe it wasnt that simple of an idea, afterall! Huntley Racing had some adaptor plates at one time but they were completely different and were selling for $350 a set.We made our plates and brought them to market for almost half the price. This was about four years ago. The one thing we didnt do was copy their design. Instead we improved upon the idea.We created something entirely different that served the same function. Myswiss didnt do this. He just copied our plates directly. The fact is that you cant change the SFR plates much from our existing design. You can give them a different shape and use different thickness of material but that is it. This is what Myswiss did. Nothing more and nothing less. This is why Myswiss is so hesitant to post pictures of his plates because then it will be proven that all he did was knock our plates off. Without a doubt, Piracy!
Now I wouldnt get my panties in an uproar if it were say intercooler pipes or something to that effect.The fact is though that there are technical drawings and this is a machined part. It is not some pipes welded together. For example.... it would be like us buying some camber plates,fuel rail,solid motor mount, etc..... and then dropping them off at the CNC shop to be duplicated. This is so wrong yet almost everyone on this thread is basically advocating this! It makes me sick to my stomach to see this! I always assumed there was a mutual respect on this list and if a lister gets wronged, everyone will come to their side and make it right. Apparently this is not the thinking here anymore. I guess the current state of mind is.....knock it off and sell it cheap because we dont have alot of cash to spend.
The funny thing is that situtations similiar to this can and will occur in YOUR normal life. It is like a co-worker stealing your idea and hard work and then getting your raise for it! It is like your classmate cheating on their test by copying yours and getting a good grade for it. This is not just about parts here. This is about integrity and morals. What Myswiss did was show no integrity or morals, whatsoever. Now there our people here applauding him. Unbeleivable! It makes me sad to say I own a Porsche.
To everyone reading this......I know everybody on the list is not like this. In fact, it is quite the opposite! There are many, many, stand-up guys here. They are many people who do value morals and integrity and this post was not directed at you.
Last edited by TurboTim; 12-22-2003 at 12:38 PM.
12-22-2003, 12:20 PM
#43
I will post a picture of MySwiss plates later today.
Regards,
Regards,
12-22-2003, 12:37 PM
#44
Thanks Scott, I will shoot some pics of the SFR plates this evening as well. Tim since you dont mind knocking off the intercooler pipes can you just make me a set without the BOV port for about 80 bucks? Or can I just order a set and return them when they are done at the exhaust shop :>))) Just Kidding, unless you are willing to make me a set real cheap :>)
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12-22-2003, 12:48 PM
#45
Hey Matt, how soon are you planning on installing your wastegate?
Regards,
Regards,