Chevy 350.
09-18-2005, 02:36 AM
#62
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There is no economic advantage is buying an LT1 - certainly. In this group, now, a fella is selling a well built up 4.5 16v that easily is cranking out 350 hp if you hook up a good exhaust and simple engine management system for $4,500 - a super bargain. 928 motors are good for over $100K miles and the problems 928 owners have are generally not with the motor or drivetrain - but electricals and electronics - which will be duplicated in a $10,000 LT1 project. The one explaining he has $8K in his motor is deleting the costs of the kit, exhaust hook up, and numerous other extras in such a project.
A 928 motor is a stunning work of art aesthetically. Exotic, hand assembled and balanced by Porsche. Gorgeous. An LT1 is just another old Chevy motor in 2 years. And such a swap project is massive, where a 928 engine replacement is a bolt in. Half the price, 1/20th the time. And with that spare $5,000 there is much you can do to your 928.
This SBC swap debate is not a new one. It has been going on for decades. The long term of it, though, is always the same. The Chevy motor becomes outdated. I recall a fella boasting of putting a Corvette 327 in place of his Maserati motor in his Maserati Bora. Had a good 60 more horsepower than the "old" Maserati motor. What do you think? If you were looking for a Bora, would you pick that one?
What of all those tens of thousands - if not hundreds - of people who put now "ancient" 16V cast iron 283s, 307s, and 350s - carberated - into their hotrods, sports cars, and other "custom" car projects?
They now all have primative, ancient motors - and probably wish they had an LT1 - which also will be ancient in 2 or 3 years. A 928 motor will last fully as long, if not longer, than an SBC.
There is a reason, however, for a person to go Bowtie in their 928 - and this if if they are going for massive horsepower increases in a major, major build up project seeking 600+ horsepower - meaning a $15K and up project. SBC parts cost much, much less in SERIOUS performance components and - maybe more important - there is actually information out there as to how to do it.
I am having to go quite "Bowtie" on my 928 project with a 32V motor - because this is my only real source of tech information either from enthusiasts or suppliers.
But, then, it becomes a $25K project as the rest of the 928 drivetrain much be upgraded too, for which $25K is a low estimate and relying on some used stuff.
The 928 was at a unique moment in history that Porsche captured. Prior to the 928, Porsche was a tiny manufacturer of custom bodies souped up VWs - not in any manner in the leaque of the Italian super cars and vastly under performing in relation to all USA muscle and significant performance cars.
The 928 was radically ornate and complex to the extreme and was a success - now "outdated" the way a Ferrari GTO, Maserati Bora, Cobra 427, Boss 302, Hemi Cuda and Chevy L88 Vette are outdated.
The 928 motor is gorgeous and aesthetically wonderful. All SBCs are dull as dirt and lack any creativity in selection.
What is the point in having a 928 if your goal becomes making it perform like, sound like and under the hood look like a Camero - and as a "custom" car no different than a 1937 Ford Coupe hotrod and
ten thousand other SBC powered modified cars?
I agree with the writer who mentioned Ford. Dropping a side oiler Ford 427 in a 928 would be sort of cool. And unique. Owning a 928 is increasing unique. And the 928 motor remains a particularly potent
motor for its broad rpm and torque curve. Upgrading the exhaust and engine management - neither very expensive - significantly increases horsepower and torque across the power range. And for the time and money of dropping in an SBC, a person could instead buy a replacement 928 motor and
for less effort make their own supercharger or turbocharger system - and again be faster than the LT1.
What would make more sense, though, it to drop in a replacement 928 motor and buy a pre-done complete supercharger kit and an exhaust - despite their $5-6K costs. And in two weekends be back on the road making from 375 to 450 horsepower - depending upon the motor and level of boost. And be driving a 928.
I disagree that the 928 motor is not relevant to the significant of the 928. It was a motor specifically designed to blow away 350 Chevy Vettes with 1000 less ccs - and it did exactly that. It was the performance of the 928 that make it the superstar of its era.
A can understand why a person would put an SBC into any car. But I do not understand why they do not then just buy a Camero. Owning a 928, Lotus, Ferrari, Maserati, Mercedes, etc etc etc has absolutely nothing to do with practical considerations. It is about the aesthetics of the machine.
Mark
A 928 motor is a stunning work of art aesthetically. Exotic, hand assembled and balanced by Porsche. Gorgeous. An LT1 is just another old Chevy motor in 2 years. And such a swap project is massive, where a 928 engine replacement is a bolt in. Half the price, 1/20th the time. And with that spare $5,000 there is much you can do to your 928.
This SBC swap debate is not a new one. It has been going on for decades. The long term of it, though, is always the same. The Chevy motor becomes outdated. I recall a fella boasting of putting a Corvette 327 in place of his Maserati motor in his Maserati Bora. Had a good 60 more horsepower than the "old" Maserati motor. What do you think? If you were looking for a Bora, would you pick that one?
What of all those tens of thousands - if not hundreds - of people who put now "ancient" 16V cast iron 283s, 307s, and 350s - carberated - into their hotrods, sports cars, and other "custom" car projects?
They now all have primative, ancient motors - and probably wish they had an LT1 - which also will be ancient in 2 or 3 years. A 928 motor will last fully as long, if not longer, than an SBC.
There is a reason, however, for a person to go Bowtie in their 928 - and this if if they are going for massive horsepower increases in a major, major build up project seeking 600+ horsepower - meaning a $15K and up project. SBC parts cost much, much less in SERIOUS performance components and - maybe more important - there is actually information out there as to how to do it.
I am having to go quite "Bowtie" on my 928 project with a 32V motor - because this is my only real source of tech information either from enthusiasts or suppliers.
But, then, it becomes a $25K project as the rest of the 928 drivetrain much be upgraded too, for which $25K is a low estimate and relying on some used stuff.
The 928 was at a unique moment in history that Porsche captured. Prior to the 928, Porsche was a tiny manufacturer of custom bodies souped up VWs - not in any manner in the leaque of the Italian super cars and vastly under performing in relation to all USA muscle and significant performance cars.
The 928 was radically ornate and complex to the extreme and was a success - now "outdated" the way a Ferrari GTO, Maserati Bora, Cobra 427, Boss 302, Hemi Cuda and Chevy L88 Vette are outdated.
The 928 motor is gorgeous and aesthetically wonderful. All SBCs are dull as dirt and lack any creativity in selection.
What is the point in having a 928 if your goal becomes making it perform like, sound like and under the hood look like a Camero - and as a "custom" car no different than a 1937 Ford Coupe hotrod and
ten thousand other SBC powered modified cars?
I agree with the writer who mentioned Ford. Dropping a side oiler Ford 427 in a 928 would be sort of cool. And unique. Owning a 928 is increasing unique. And the 928 motor remains a particularly potent
motor for its broad rpm and torque curve. Upgrading the exhaust and engine management - neither very expensive - significantly increases horsepower and torque across the power range. And for the time and money of dropping in an SBC, a person could instead buy a replacement 928 motor and
for less effort make their own supercharger or turbocharger system - and again be faster than the LT1.
What would make more sense, though, it to drop in a replacement 928 motor and buy a pre-done complete supercharger kit and an exhaust - despite their $5-6K costs. And in two weekends be back on the road making from 375 to 450 horsepower - depending upon the motor and level of boost. And be driving a 928.
I disagree that the 928 motor is not relevant to the significant of the 928. It was a motor specifically designed to blow away 350 Chevy Vettes with 1000 less ccs - and it did exactly that. It was the performance of the 928 that make it the superstar of its era.
A can understand why a person would put an SBC into any car. But I do not understand why they do not then just buy a Camero. Owning a 928, Lotus, Ferrari, Maserati, Mercedes, etc etc etc has absolutely nothing to do with practical considerations. It is about the aesthetics of the machine.
Mark
09-18-2005, 03:33 AM
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...Lets say I wanted to build a Chevy 350 with equlivelent longivity to the Porsche GTS engine....
Whoa! you are all over looking the obvious 3 ways to make a Chevy 350 fit your request
1. First of all it needs to burn a quart of oil every 1000 miles.
2. Then have random, catastrophic failures of it valve timing system. Perhaps an explosive squib attached to a random number generator.
3. And if you are using an AT then find some way to grind the block away using the crankshaft.
Whoa! you are all over looking the obvious 3 ways to make a Chevy 350 fit your request
1. First of all it needs to burn a quart of oil every 1000 miles.
2. Then have random, catastrophic failures of it valve timing system. Perhaps an explosive squib attached to a random number generator.
3. And if you are using an AT then find some way to grind the block away using the crankshaft.
09-18-2005, 06:57 AM
#64
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GTS engine was screw up from Porsche but still it will be very important for cars value if it has correct engine when classic label is attached to it. And not just any GTS engine. Having original block makes car more valuable than swaped engine car what is otherwise equal. Maserati Bora and many other Italians are very good examples of this. There have been many cases where especially fifties and sixties car received Chevy 327 or some other V8 to make it more powerful when car was 10-15 years old. When they reached 25-30 years all of the sudden everybody was desperately looking for original engines as installing it back in would more than double cars value. There aren't many 928 models which can reach this kind of status though. Maybe very early '78, CS, SE and '95 GTS.
09-18-2005, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by DFWX
There is no economic advantage is buying an LT1 - certainly. ,,,,,,The one explaining he has $8K in his motor is deleting the costs of the kit, exhaust hook up, and numerous other extras in such a project.
Mark
Mark
The latest rebuild 5K was not necessary but I have to much time on my hands in the winter.
Exhaust system is an Ansa designed for a 928 which needed replacing anyway. Electric hookups, hoses and cables were minimal since the two systems are very compatible.
At that time, 4.5 years ago, I called many 928 sources seeking a new or rebuilt 350 HP engine for my 80 US version 928 which had numerous oil leaks and was just plain weak. Prices ranged from rebuilding the original for 3-4K and the keeping 220 HP, a used Euro about 5K with 300 HP(but virtually unavailable at the time), used 32 valve with 316K for 10K, and a rebuilt, bored stroked 32 valve for 18K.
The original LT1 conversion was 7K and seemed like the way to go.
If there is a way to get to 350 HP on a new or rebuilt Porsche 928 engine in an early model 928 for 7K, I'd like to hear it.
09-18-2005, 12:10 PM
#66
"What of all those tens of thousands - if not hundreds - of people who put now "ancient" 16V cast iron 283s, 307s, and 350s - carberated - into their hotrods, sports cars, and other "custom" car projects?
They now all have primative, ancient motors "
Yeah, primitive motors that can easily be made to turn 500+HP, and that will start everyday, that are stupidly easy to TS, and that don't have all kinds of annoying relay problems.
I prefer the Porsche motors myself, but bashing the 350 Chevy engine is like bashing apple pie. Both are about as timelessly american as you can get.
BTW, when i think LT-1 i still think of the quintessestial 1st gen small block, the 70-73 350cid/370HP engine. Had one out of a 73 Vette in my 4 speed 78 El Camino.
They now all have primative, ancient motors "
Yeah, primitive motors that can easily be made to turn 500+HP, and that will start everyday, that are stupidly easy to TS, and that don't have all kinds of annoying relay problems.
I prefer the Porsche motors myself, but bashing the 350 Chevy engine is like bashing apple pie. Both are about as timelessly american as you can get.
BTW, when i think LT-1 i still think of the quintessestial 1st gen small block, the 70-73 350cid/370HP engine. Had one out of a 73 Vette in my 4 speed 78 El Camino.
09-18-2005, 12:31 PM
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If your thinking of doing a "Chevy" conversion for a cost advantage, that only works if you are capable of doing all the work yourself and IF that is how you want to spend your time. Our first car was not all that expensive to do as we bought the car cheap with the conversion already 98% done... it was very rough.
If you cannot do the work, or your time is far more valuable at your business making money vs. working on the Porsche, a professional job breaks down something like this (from my experience, ballpark prices):
Renegade Conversion Parts (three month wait for delivery)... $4,000 entire kit.
Hand Built Race Engine (in my case) ................................... $5,500
Extra parts (billet and Chrome stuff) ................................... $1,500
Systems hook-up (A/C Heat Components)............................ $ 800
Overall labor incl. re-wiring ..............................................$10,000
So for $22,000 without touching paint, interior and suspension upgrades I got better than C6 Corvette power, but with the tall gearing of the transaxle, I'd bet the C6 could still beat me to 60.
That said, the car still pulls like a tractor, and for very little extra dollars I could have easily pushed 500+ HP, which I did not want because of driveability... the car has no stability system, and our blower 928 pushing 600 HP is a blast to drive, but very scary.
You could get a lot of HP out of the 928 engine, but the torque is the problem... I can still step on the gas and easily break loose those wide 18" tires even with my cheap (hand made, NO oil burn) engine. I cannot daily drive a car 175 MPH, but I can feel the power pulse though me every time I take off without flooring the car. This is why I love the older Buell Motorcycles... they pulse the low power band right through you as if your part of the machine every time you accellerate... it will easily lift the front wheel in the first two gears without dumping the clutch at low rpm's and they handle almost as good as the crotch rockets. The older Buell S1 Lightnings (before Harley bought Buell out) as both refined and raw... My 928 is as close to the Buell in character as a car can get and that was worth every penny I spent.
Right now I'm wrestling with the concept of actually ordering the Aston Martin Vantage that I have a slot for June delivery on. This, like the 928 is a very refined car with a Ford (oops I mean Aston Martin V8, that looks an awful like a Ford motor) in it. In fact the car is quite a bit like an evolved 928 in many ways with (I hope) the luxurious Aston character. If time allows I will look at teh actual car on October 13th in Chicago. The car will be $120 with options. It will have 150 LBS LESS Torque than my 928 and 30 Less HP. The 6 Speed gear box ought to help. The car will be about the "feel" and the look. The money is a problem... I've got to work my *** off between now and June to remotely think about taking delivery, but it's do-able, and will be a car I'll own for life, as will be my Lagonda, and two Porsches.
My 928 looks like a car made in 2005 and it feels right, well worth the investment I made. It draws crowds, much more than a Vette that costs more.
I have no regrets... but if I had the chance to re-do it today, for $12K I'd get the Z06 engine... what a hoot that would be and the efficiency would make driving guilt free! By the way my weak, problematic (valve problem) Porsche Engine got me $1,500 so that helped.
PS... What I read on the new Vette Z06 motor is that these are hand made, they do not have a gas tax, (as they are fuel efficient) and for $12K that's the bargain of the century... but the actual installed price will be much more than that in the end.
If you cannot do the work, or your time is far more valuable at your business making money vs. working on the Porsche, a professional job breaks down something like this (from my experience, ballpark prices):
Renegade Conversion Parts (three month wait for delivery)... $4,000 entire kit.
Hand Built Race Engine (in my case) ................................... $5,500
Extra parts (billet and Chrome stuff) ................................... $1,500
Systems hook-up (A/C Heat Components)............................ $ 800
Overall labor incl. re-wiring ..............................................$10,000
So for $22,000 without touching paint, interior and suspension upgrades I got better than C6 Corvette power, but with the tall gearing of the transaxle, I'd bet the C6 could still beat me to 60.
That said, the car still pulls like a tractor, and for very little extra dollars I could have easily pushed 500+ HP, which I did not want because of driveability... the car has no stability system, and our blower 928 pushing 600 HP is a blast to drive, but very scary.
You could get a lot of HP out of the 928 engine, but the torque is the problem... I can still step on the gas and easily break loose those wide 18" tires even with my cheap (hand made, NO oil burn) engine. I cannot daily drive a car 175 MPH, but I can feel the power pulse though me every time I take off without flooring the car. This is why I love the older Buell Motorcycles... they pulse the low power band right through you as if your part of the machine every time you accellerate... it will easily lift the front wheel in the first two gears without dumping the clutch at low rpm's and they handle almost as good as the crotch rockets. The older Buell S1 Lightnings (before Harley bought Buell out) as both refined and raw... My 928 is as close to the Buell in character as a car can get and that was worth every penny I spent.
Right now I'm wrestling with the concept of actually ordering the Aston Martin Vantage that I have a slot for June delivery on. This, like the 928 is a very refined car with a Ford (oops I mean Aston Martin V8, that looks an awful like a Ford motor) in it. In fact the car is quite a bit like an evolved 928 in many ways with (I hope) the luxurious Aston character. If time allows I will look at teh actual car on October 13th in Chicago. The car will be $120 with options. It will have 150 LBS LESS Torque than my 928 and 30 Less HP. The 6 Speed gear box ought to help. The car will be about the "feel" and the look. The money is a problem... I've got to work my *** off between now and June to remotely think about taking delivery, but it's do-able, and will be a car I'll own for life, as will be my Lagonda, and two Porsches.
My 928 looks like a car made in 2005 and it feels right, well worth the investment I made. It draws crowds, much more than a Vette that costs more.
I have no regrets... but if I had the chance to re-do it today, for $12K I'd get the Z06 engine... what a hoot that would be and the efficiency would make driving guilt free! By the way my weak, problematic (valve problem) Porsche Engine got me $1,500 so that helped.
PS... What I read on the new Vette Z06 motor is that these are hand made, they do not have a gas tax, (as they are fuel efficient) and for $12K that's the bargain of the century... but the actual installed price will be much more than that in the end.
09-18-2005, 02:10 PM
#68
Alot of these guys here seem to have quite a bitof experience with Chevs. I'm not sure so many have actually tried to rebuild a 928 motor.
8k? With 8K, and using your own blood, sweat, tears, and time, you could build a very nice 928 motor that would be very fun, and very much over 400rwhp. WIth proper time spent on Ebay, and here, you could find just the right stuff.
8k? With 8K, and using your own blood, sweat, tears, and time, you could build a very nice 928 motor that would be very fun, and very much over 400rwhp. WIth proper time spent on Ebay, and here, you could find just the right stuff.
Originally Posted by Rob M Budd
I'm just starting the 5th year of driving my SBC LT1 powered 928 with over 30,000 almost trouble free miles so far. Although I did have it stroked, bored, balanced and blueprinted last winter to the tune of $5,000. HP is 401.
I say almost trouble free, since I had to replace the intake air temp sensor last month ($9.99 at Autozone). And the alternator a couple years ago ($120.00 Pep Boys).
Its been at a few shows (hood open) here in the Detroit area and received compliments from domestic and import owners and even won a couple awards. (One was $30.00!)
I've got $8,000 in the engine including the first stock rebuild but I'd much rather have a 400 HP, stroked and blueprinted S4 though its doubltful that can be done for 5K.
Its a fine engine in a great car which adds up to a lot of driving pleasure.
On a side note, it weighed in at a whopping 3810 lbs with me (180lbs) aboard.
I say almost trouble free, since I had to replace the intake air temp sensor last month ($9.99 at Autozone). And the alternator a couple years ago ($120.00 Pep Boys).
Its been at a few shows (hood open) here in the Detroit area and received compliments from domestic and import owners and even won a couple awards. (One was $30.00!)
I've got $8,000 in the engine including the first stock rebuild but I'd much rather have a 400 HP, stroked and blueprinted S4 though its doubltful that can be done for 5K.
Its a fine engine in a great car which adds up to a lot of driving pleasure.
On a side note, it weighed in at a whopping 3810 lbs with me (180lbs) aboard.
09-18-2005, 02:13 PM
#69
I hear where you're comming from, but annoying relay problems happen because of neglected... Relays. And the board. Replace the board, or clean the current one. People have, and the problems disappear.
Originally Posted by m21sniper
"What of all those tens of thousands - if not hundreds - of people who put now "ancient" 16V cast iron 283s, 307s, and 350s - carberated - into their hotrods, sports cars, and other "custom" car projects?
They now all have primative, ancient motors "
Yeah, primitive motors that can easily be made to turn 500+HP, and that will start everyday, that are stupidly easy to TS, and that don't have all kinds of annoying relay problems.
I prefer the Porsche motors myself, but bashing the 350 Chevy engine is like bashing apple pie. Both are about as timelessly american as you can get.
BTW, when i think LT-1 i still think of the quintessestial 1st gen small block, the 70-73 350cid/370HP engine. Had one out of a 73 Vette in my 4 speed 78 El Camino.
They now all have primative, ancient motors "
Yeah, primitive motors that can easily be made to turn 500+HP, and that will start everyday, that are stupidly easy to TS, and that don't have all kinds of annoying relay problems.
I prefer the Porsche motors myself, but bashing the 350 Chevy engine is like bashing apple pie. Both are about as timelessly american as you can get.
BTW, when i think LT-1 i still think of the quintessestial 1st gen small block, the 70-73 350cid/370HP engine. Had one out of a 73 Vette in my 4 speed 78 El Camino.
09-18-2005, 04:25 PM
#70
Three Wheelin'
Porsche made quite a bit more than souped up VW's by 1978. DFWX maybe you should bone up on older model Porsches before you get on your soapbox. I guess you never heard of a Carrerra RS, or Carrerra RSR or how about a 930. I think a 1978 930 was just a tiny bit faster than a 1978 928 or just about any other factory car of that year. In fact they might have already won Lemans with a 911 derivative or were about to. But gees the 911's were just lowly 2 valve, single overhead cam engines with rocker arms for Gods sake. Hell if they were any lower tech they might have pushrods.
09-19-2005, 10:51 AM
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DFWX isn't here to really bash the conversion, he just hates sbc's. This is the wrong crowd for an attack on sbc's considering only 3 or 4 of us have them in our cars. DFWX go to HotRod.com or some Chevy-based forum to make your attacks in a more viable place. When you brought this same topic to Pelican Parts it got you nothing other than vented.
09-19-2005, 01:00 PM
#72
What gets me about this is I don't believe Chevy engines are better than Porsche engines. I also believe that when you steal the heart out of a Porsche out (the soul) it ceases to be a Porsche, just a bastard. Last thing...GM has been near the bottom in reliability and quality for the past 30 years, how is that "better" for my car?
09-19-2005, 01:13 PM
#73
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Hey...I thought I owned the only "Bastard" 928...
I for one am not a fan of the Chevy swaps...but I can't deny the cost is low for the power levels. I do tend to think people under estimate the total cost of the swap though. Additionally, it isn't want I want to see when I lift the lid...it represents little finesse in its solution to the need...or is that a want?
You always hear of these people talking 600 NA HP out of 350 cid pushrod Chevy engine...yes it has been done, but you then have a car that doesn't idle, drinks lots of fuel and is really not streetable. GM has once again upped the displacement on the Vette...where is in now, 7.0 liters? That is just insane displacement and to me isn't any form of a technical challenge...but I agree there is seldom a replacement for displacement...but guys like me have a lot of fun in the process.
I believe the best way to increse the 928s performance is by forced induction. My goal with the new twin turbo 928S4 is a totally docile, streetable car that can run with the best new performance cars out there. Gentle manners when you need them, but brute force when you want it. I hope riding this beast feels like being shot out of a cannon when the force feeding starts. I want something that is jaw dropping.
For me, a big block would just be the wrong thing to do. I'll know real soon where the TT 4.5 liter with Euro cams pulls in...
My $0.02
I for one am not a fan of the Chevy swaps...but I can't deny the cost is low for the power levels. I do tend to think people under estimate the total cost of the swap though. Additionally, it isn't want I want to see when I lift the lid...it represents little finesse in its solution to the need...or is that a want?
You always hear of these people talking 600 NA HP out of 350 cid pushrod Chevy engine...yes it has been done, but you then have a car that doesn't idle, drinks lots of fuel and is really not streetable. GM has once again upped the displacement on the Vette...where is in now, 7.0 liters? That is just insane displacement and to me isn't any form of a technical challenge...but I agree there is seldom a replacement for displacement...but guys like me have a lot of fun in the process.
I believe the best way to increse the 928s performance is by forced induction. My goal with the new twin turbo 928S4 is a totally docile, streetable car that can run with the best new performance cars out there. Gentle manners when you need them, but brute force when you want it. I hope riding this beast feels like being shot out of a cannon when the force feeding starts. I want something that is jaw dropping.
For me, a big block would just be the wrong thing to do. I'll know real soon where the TT 4.5 liter with Euro cams pulls in...
My $0.02
09-19-2005, 01:15 PM
#74
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I'm not sayong you should do it, as a matter of fact, when I got my car the chevy engine was always in it. You say it's no longer a Porsche, but the majority of Porsche drivers don't consider the 928, 924, 944 or 914 Porsches anyway. This is because those cars don't have the same style engine as any 911 based car. Your argument against them is the same as argument against Chevy powered 928's. None of the people that have done the conversion did it for you. They did it for themselves. We continue to stay on Rennlist for our love of cars, and for the information and stories shared by everyone here. 99.9% of anything stated on any forum is opinion, and there is no way that everyone is always going to have the same opinion, or else nothing would be special, in your eyes or mine.
09-19-2005, 01:16 PM
#75
"Last thing...GM has been near the bottom in reliability and quality for the past 30 years, how is that "better" for my car?"
The 1st gen SBC is one of the most reliable engines ever built.
The 1st gen SBC is one of the most reliable engines ever built.