Help me make a silk purse from a sow's ear
11-11-2003, 10:26 PM
#46
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Ron_H: No apologies needed. I think I sounded a bit offended, which I'm not. I know you meant for the best.
Is John saying that I should buy the "busted" 928 and take apart and sell the good parts?
BC Davis: I like your idea, maybe I should do that. Hope I can change the tail lights though, they make the car look ugly from the back. I also like your old 'Zs' They look superb should I say.
P.S whats a "carb" ??
-Leth
[Edit] 280z I've found i like so far
1) http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...&category=6187
2) http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...&category=6187 this one has a 2+2 thingy taht someone said about.
www.928gt.com BTW someone posted about the reference to the site. Just to give credit.
Is John saying that I should buy the "busted" 928 and take apart and sell the good parts?
BC Davis: I like your idea, maybe I should do that. Hope I can change the tail lights though, they make the car look ugly from the back. I also like your old 'Zs' They look superb should I say.
P.S whats a "carb" ??
-Leth
[Edit] 280z I've found i like so far
1) http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...&category=6187
2) http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...&category=6187 this one has a 2+2 thingy taht someone said about.
www.928gt.com BTW someone posted about the reference to the site. Just to give credit.
Last edited by LethargyTM; 11-11-2003 at 10:59 PM.
11-12-2003, 11:22 AM
#51
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Tresamore: Beautiful Z!! How could you part with that?!?! You must have spent quite a bit of time restoring it and selling must have been sad.
Leth: A "carb" is a carburetor (in contrast to fuel injected engines) and 2+2 means 2 seats upfront and 2 seats in the rear. The coupe only has 2 seats (driver and passenger). The problem, IMHO, with the 2+2 is the car was just stretched out to add the seats and the lines on the roofline look awkward. The coupe is a shorter, curvier and more sporty look. I think.
Leth: A "carb" is a carburetor (in contrast to fuel injected engines) and 2+2 means 2 seats upfront and 2 seats in the rear. The coupe only has 2 seats (driver and passenger). The problem, IMHO, with the 2+2 is the car was just stretched out to add the seats and the lines on the roofline look awkward. The coupe is a shorter, curvier and more sporty look. I think.
11-12-2003, 12:05 PM
#52
Nordschleife Master
Wow, you must be young.
A carb is a carburetor. It is used to mix the fuel with the incomeing air. It uses a system of mechenical linkages, passages, and an intersting device called a ventury to get the proper mixture of fuel and air to make the engine run. In it's basic form, it's far simpler and cheaper than FI, however, it's basic form isn't too good. Over the years, additional complexity was added to allow it to change the mixture for acceleration, warm up enrichment, WOT enrichment, and inital starting enrichement, adding to the drivibility issues, they started added emissions controls equipment. By the time the final version of the emission carburetor came out, it had more wires, vaccum lines, fuel hoses, and thingies on it than you care to point a stick at. Thus comes EFI, or electronic fuel inejction. A computer takes care of all the dirvibility issues, and ballances the ait/fuel mixture almost perfectly. the final result of EFI is far simpler than the smog carburetors.
Most of the older generation of 928 owner's cut their teeth on carbs. To them it's an old freind. I started out in a diffrent era. As I was growing up, smog carbs where being phased out, and the MFI, and expecaly EFI were comeing in. I'm only a few years older than you, but all the stuff I got to mess with was old by the time I got to it. If I was you, I'd stay far far away from carbs on anything larger than a single cylinder lawn mower. And if you can, stay away from dual carb set ups, unless your already fimiler with them then can be a nightmare.
Don't let the folks scare you too much. You can probably swing a 928. Heck, if I can, then you can, but here's the deal, you've gotta be ready to learn.
The 928 is a very well layed out car, expecaly incomparasion to some of detroit's junk. You can learn everything there is to know about it car over time, there's no mystical genie that makes things work. The older L-jet cars engines seem to be very forgiveing. Unless you've got a special engine, it's a non interference motor. The EFI is robust, and the ignition system isn't half bad. And if you don't try to hot rod it, the price of ownership isn't all that bad. Plus, on a 20 year old car, there's always something to fix on, trust me!
That said, don't buy a car that doesn't run. Make that a rule, no matter what kind of car your looking at. If it doesn't run, you don't know if the engine is sezed, or not. You don't really know whats wrong. You don't know of the transmishion is any good, or if the brakes do their thing, or so on a so forth. Don't buy it. Concider this, if the owner knew, or had a mechenic that knew how to get it to run, youc an bet he would, because car that runs is much more valueable than a car that doesn't. Nope he'll only sell a not running car if he's an idoit, or he can't get it to run for a reasonable price. If he can't get it to run for a reasonable price, you probably can't eighter.
Don't buy cars with leaves in strange places. Leaves don't just appere, they're carried there by something. What you might ask? Rats. What do rats do when they're bored, chew on wired, fuel lines, and anything else not too metalic for their tastes. This makes for some hellatious nightmares to fix.
Try not to buy cars that have not been driven in a long while. Not being driven is had on cars, expecaly 928s. Car like to be driven. They like to move. I leave them idle for too long, and they don't work right any more.
So now, if you want a 928, go out and find on in your budget that runs. IMHO, a 78-84 would be your best feild. There are more of these cars in junk yards, but very few, if any later cars. The engines are more forgiveing, as they're non interference, and the engines are detuned from they're full Euro hp, by about 80 hp. You can get away regular gasoline, which you can't do with a newer 928.
Don't worry much about buying a 928s under 150,000 miles. They are not chevys. The blocks are a exotic allow that hanndles wear better. Most of the older 928's with about 100-150 grand on the clock don't seem to burn any oil. The EFI, or MFI system is robust, and the ignition is normaly very reliable. The transmittion for the early models can wear the syncros out
What you have to worry about is Previous Owners. They can hack up wireing systems, and cause the car to have weird electrial faults. The 928 has about a miles worth of wireing in it. Just imagion someing going thourgh it randomly snipping wires, and unplugeing terminals.
Get the car checked out before you buy it, even if it looks good.
Good luck on your purchace.
A carb is a carburetor. It is used to mix the fuel with the incomeing air. It uses a system of mechenical linkages, passages, and an intersting device called a ventury to get the proper mixture of fuel and air to make the engine run. In it's basic form, it's far simpler and cheaper than FI, however, it's basic form isn't too good. Over the years, additional complexity was added to allow it to change the mixture for acceleration, warm up enrichment, WOT enrichment, and inital starting enrichement, adding to the drivibility issues, they started added emissions controls equipment. By the time the final version of the emission carburetor came out, it had more wires, vaccum lines, fuel hoses, and thingies on it than you care to point a stick at. Thus comes EFI, or electronic fuel inejction. A computer takes care of all the dirvibility issues, and ballances the ait/fuel mixture almost perfectly. the final result of EFI is far simpler than the smog carburetors.
Most of the older generation of 928 owner's cut their teeth on carbs. To them it's an old freind. I started out in a diffrent era. As I was growing up, smog carbs where being phased out, and the MFI, and expecaly EFI were comeing in. I'm only a few years older than you, but all the stuff I got to mess with was old by the time I got to it. If I was you, I'd stay far far away from carbs on anything larger than a single cylinder lawn mower. And if you can, stay away from dual carb set ups, unless your already fimiler with them then can be a nightmare.
Don't let the folks scare you too much. You can probably swing a 928. Heck, if I can, then you can, but here's the deal, you've gotta be ready to learn.
The 928 is a very well layed out car, expecaly incomparasion to some of detroit's junk. You can learn everything there is to know about it car over time, there's no mystical genie that makes things work. The older L-jet cars engines seem to be very forgiveing. Unless you've got a special engine, it's a non interference motor. The EFI is robust, and the ignition system isn't half bad. And if you don't try to hot rod it, the price of ownership isn't all that bad. Plus, on a 20 year old car, there's always something to fix on, trust me!
That said, don't buy a car that doesn't run. Make that a rule, no matter what kind of car your looking at. If it doesn't run, you don't know if the engine is sezed, or not. You don't really know whats wrong. You don't know of the transmishion is any good, or if the brakes do their thing, or so on a so forth. Don't buy it. Concider this, if the owner knew, or had a mechenic that knew how to get it to run, youc an bet he would, because car that runs is much more valueable than a car that doesn't. Nope he'll only sell a not running car if he's an idoit, or he can't get it to run for a reasonable price. If he can't get it to run for a reasonable price, you probably can't eighter.
Don't buy cars with leaves in strange places. Leaves don't just appere, they're carried there by something. What you might ask? Rats. What do rats do when they're bored, chew on wired, fuel lines, and anything else not too metalic for their tastes. This makes for some hellatious nightmares to fix.
Try not to buy cars that have not been driven in a long while. Not being driven is had on cars, expecaly 928s. Car like to be driven. They like to move. I leave them idle for too long, and they don't work right any more.
So now, if you want a 928, go out and find on in your budget that runs. IMHO, a 78-84 would be your best feild. There are more of these cars in junk yards, but very few, if any later cars. The engines are more forgiveing, as they're non interference, and the engines are detuned from they're full Euro hp, by about 80 hp. You can get away regular gasoline, which you can't do with a newer 928.
Don't worry much about buying a 928s under 150,000 miles. They are not chevys. The blocks are a exotic allow that hanndles wear better. Most of the older 928's with about 100-150 grand on the clock don't seem to burn any oil. The EFI, or MFI system is robust, and the ignition is normaly very reliable. The transmittion for the early models can wear the syncros out
What you have to worry about is Previous Owners. They can hack up wireing systems, and cause the car to have weird electrial faults. The 928 has about a miles worth of wireing in it. Just imagion someing going thourgh it randomly snipping wires, and unplugeing terminals.
Get the car checked out before you buy it, even if it looks good.
Good luck on your purchace.
11-12-2003, 01:12 PM
#53
Rennlist Member
Some slightly different comments on that car:
First off, let me say that everyone here is right, and that car will proabably be a MAJOR headache for whoever steps in it. You would be insane to buy it.
On the other hand when I was your age I bought a 914 for that price in much worse condition. It was completely insane. It cost me a whole summer of tinkering and bumming around pick-a-parts, and hand fabricating parts I could not afford before I could drive it at all, and about another five years of part time futzing and such before it was reliable and looked really nice.
So, coming in on the side of insanity I have to say that I really had a great time and I really learned a lot and I am (usually) glad I did it. I did not put a lot of cash in, but, still, I would have probably done financially better if I had spent the time working at McDonalds. Except that I have had a very successful and lucrative career as an engineer and part of that is an unusually well developed ability to visualize how things fit together and an instinct for problem solving. I am so convinced that this is partially a result of my hobby that I usually ask engineers that i am interviewing if they work on thier cars and it is a point in thier favor if they do.
Since then I have done the same thing with two 928, and I am mostly glad I did them as well. Both were huge projects that took years and tons of time, but I did them by putting in huge time and effort and little money. You just have to draw a line and say " under no circumstance am I going to a) have anybody else do any work on this car other than mounting tires or doing the allignment, or b) put out more than $200 per month in parts. If you stick to those rules and you have a place to work (for 2 or 3 years) you can have some control over the financial hit.
Another positive thing is that even though the 928 is more complex than a Chevy, I think it is the easiest Porsche to work on. As usual with Porsche the earlier cars are mostly easier than the later cars. As a model develops their engineers add more stuff to the design, and often the new stuff is not as well though out in terms of service and access as the original design.
The big issue with the car is probably the body kit, and the question there is "do you like it?". Personally I don't but you might. The thing about body kits is that the narrow the market quite a lot when you go to sell it. So it will be harder for you to get any money back out. But if you really like it and you think you will still like five years from not then that's fine.
So think about it carefully and remember that you are talking about a hobby, not a means of transportation. You will need something else as transportation for quite a while probably. But if you just crave the car, and if you really want to learn about this stuff and you are not scared of putting in huge time and dealing with huge frustration and trickeling in a few thousand dollars over a several year time frame then it might be possible for you.
Here is one more thing to think about. They say that power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts, absolutly. A well running 928 comes pretty close to absolute power in my book. So, basically if you get this car and you get it running you will have the ability and the constant temptation to risk your life and the lives of others for the sake of fun (ok, a lot of fun). Make sure you are ready for that. Personally I am happy that I had a car that was a lot of fun but not really dangerious when I was your age. A smaller lighter car (like a 914, or perhaps a Z) can be a lot of fun between 30 and 70 mph. You might be risking a ticket but that's about it. To me a 928 really comes into its own and feels at home starting about 60 and going up to about 130 or so. Below that it feels kinda heavy and above that I get vibrations I dont like. So, when I am really having fun in my 928 I know that I am risking a trip to jail, serious injury, or death. Does getting older make me better able to judge when to take those risks? I'm not sure, but there are a few things I have learned first hand since my 914 days that help me make decisions. 1) being injured and in the hosipital sucks and is to be avoided. 2) having someone you care about die really sucks and is to be avoided. These seem pretty obvious but it really make a difference if you can actually remember, of example, how badly you wanted to get out of that hospital bed and it just going on and on.
So anyway, good luck with your decision....
First off, let me say that everyone here is right, and that car will proabably be a MAJOR headache for whoever steps in it. You would be insane to buy it.
On the other hand when I was your age I bought a 914 for that price in much worse condition. It was completely insane. It cost me a whole summer of tinkering and bumming around pick-a-parts, and hand fabricating parts I could not afford before I could drive it at all, and about another five years of part time futzing and such before it was reliable and looked really nice.
So, coming in on the side of insanity I have to say that I really had a great time and I really learned a lot and I am (usually) glad I did it. I did not put a lot of cash in, but, still, I would have probably done financially better if I had spent the time working at McDonalds. Except that I have had a very successful and lucrative career as an engineer and part of that is an unusually well developed ability to visualize how things fit together and an instinct for problem solving. I am so convinced that this is partially a result of my hobby that I usually ask engineers that i am interviewing if they work on thier cars and it is a point in thier favor if they do.
Since then I have done the same thing with two 928, and I am mostly glad I did them as well. Both were huge projects that took years and tons of time, but I did them by putting in huge time and effort and little money. You just have to draw a line and say " under no circumstance am I going to a) have anybody else do any work on this car other than mounting tires or doing the allignment, or b) put out more than $200 per month in parts. If you stick to those rules and you have a place to work (for 2 or 3 years) you can have some control over the financial hit.
Another positive thing is that even though the 928 is more complex than a Chevy, I think it is the easiest Porsche to work on. As usual with Porsche the earlier cars are mostly easier than the later cars. As a model develops their engineers add more stuff to the design, and often the new stuff is not as well though out in terms of service and access as the original design.
The big issue with the car is probably the body kit, and the question there is "do you like it?". Personally I don't but you might. The thing about body kits is that the narrow the market quite a lot when you go to sell it. So it will be harder for you to get any money back out. But if you really like it and you think you will still like five years from not then that's fine.
So think about it carefully and remember that you are talking about a hobby, not a means of transportation. You will need something else as transportation for quite a while probably. But if you just crave the car, and if you really want to learn about this stuff and you are not scared of putting in huge time and dealing with huge frustration and trickeling in a few thousand dollars over a several year time frame then it might be possible for you.
Here is one more thing to think about. They say that power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts, absolutly. A well running 928 comes pretty close to absolute power in my book. So, basically if you get this car and you get it running you will have the ability and the constant temptation to risk your life and the lives of others for the sake of fun (ok, a lot of fun). Make sure you are ready for that. Personally I am happy that I had a car that was a lot of fun but not really dangerious when I was your age. A smaller lighter car (like a 914, or perhaps a Z) can be a lot of fun between 30 and 70 mph. You might be risking a ticket but that's about it. To me a 928 really comes into its own and feels at home starting about 60 and going up to about 130 or so. Below that it feels kinda heavy and above that I get vibrations I dont like. So, when I am really having fun in my 928 I know that I am risking a trip to jail, serious injury, or death. Does getting older make me better able to judge when to take those risks? I'm not sure, but there are a few things I have learned first hand since my 914 days that help me make decisions. 1) being injured and in the hosipital sucks and is to be avoided. 2) having someone you care about die really sucks and is to be avoided. These seem pretty obvious but it really make a difference if you can actually remember, of example, how badly you wanted to get out of that hospital bed and it just going on and on.
So anyway, good luck with your decision....
11-12-2003, 01:25 PM
#54
Nordschleife Master
Karl I agree with a few of your comments but you shouldn't be getting any vibrations over 130mph, I take mine up past the 160 mark all the time and have no vibrations, I personally would have your tires checked out
and when I do it the detector is on and there is NO other traffic, and it is a straight road
and when I do it the detector is on and there is NO other traffic, and it is a straight road
11-12-2003, 02:14 PM
#55
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I would not suggest a 968, it would be hard to get one in good shape for under ten grand. Great cars though. Also many of them need a good-sized pile of money right away to replace the variocam assembly, cam chain, etc. or the top end can go bad on you in a terrible and expensive way.
If you do want a 928, they are approachable but I think you need to be able to work on them yourself and have at least $2K for repairs straight away and another $2K for the unexpected. It is also good if you do not need the car for daily transportation, if you cannot have some downtime to scrounge up parts at a good price or figure out a repair yourself, your budget goes through the roof. This is assuming you buy a running, useable car. You are likely to need stuff like brakes, hoses, tuneup parts, etc. inthe first few days of ownership. It is common for even someone who does thier own work and gets good prices on parts to drop a couple $K on a car that seems to need almost nothing at the time of purchase.
The seller of the $600 ebay 1980 (79?) 928 is my hero. Here's a car that he should be paying someone good money to haul away and he's getting $600 for it? If I were close by and wanted the motor, I might pay something for that car but I don't know about $600. If I did buy it I'd have the motor out in a few hours and the carcass hauled off before the sight of it ruined my evening meal.
-Joel.
If you do want a 928, they are approachable but I think you need to be able to work on them yourself and have at least $2K for repairs straight away and another $2K for the unexpected. It is also good if you do not need the car for daily transportation, if you cannot have some downtime to scrounge up parts at a good price or figure out a repair yourself, your budget goes through the roof. This is assuming you buy a running, useable car. You are likely to need stuff like brakes, hoses, tuneup parts, etc. inthe first few days of ownership. It is common for even someone who does thier own work and gets good prices on parts to drop a couple $K on a car that seems to need almost nothing at the time of purchase.
The seller of the $600 ebay 1980 (79?) 928 is my hero. Here's a car that he should be paying someone good money to haul away and he's getting $600 for it? If I were close by and wanted the motor, I might pay something for that car but I don't know about $600. If I did buy it I'd have the motor out in a few hours and the carcass hauled off before the sight of it ruined my evening meal.
-Joel.
11-12-2003, 04:00 PM
#56
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If you are on a beer budget but hell-bent on driving a 928, your best bet would be to get one with a good drivetrain that needs cosmetics, paint, electrical work, an interior, etc.
Cars like that 86 (broken timing belt) with major drivetrain problems might seem like it would fixing. Problem is that you can buy a running one of that year and mileage for the same final investment.
Cars like that 86 (broken timing belt) with major drivetrain problems might seem like it would fixing. Problem is that you can buy a running one of that year and mileage for the same final investment.
11-12-2003, 04:35 PM
#57
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Karl - good idea bringing up the 914.
Personally I started with a '79 924 - which I would not recommend to anyone, kinda couldn't get out of it's own way. Sold that for a '74 914 2.0. I LOVED that 914! Ran it in PCA and SCCA autocrosses and had a blast. Got pulled over going down I-5 to LA once. Cop nailed me at 138 mph! Not bad, and thank the lord the cop also had a '74 914 - wrote me up for 75 in a 65 (WHEW!!!)
Ok, sold the 914 to make ends meet in my early 20's. And as someone else in this discussion mentioned, once the Porsche bug bites, you're a goner. Since 1986 I've wanted a 928, but I knew what it was going to take to maintain one ($$$). So after about 10 yrs of being Porsche-less, and being in a financially "ok" position, I realized it was time to get the 928. Absolutely love it - but I'VE HAD TO WAIT SINCE 1986 TO GET ONE!!!
So I guess my point is, even though you may want a 928 NOW, you may have a whole lot more fun with a more affordable car - and if you're like the rest of us one this board - you will get your 928 someday . . . just be patient.
Personally I started with a '79 924 - which I would not recommend to anyone, kinda couldn't get out of it's own way. Sold that for a '74 914 2.0. I LOVED that 914! Ran it in PCA and SCCA autocrosses and had a blast. Got pulled over going down I-5 to LA once. Cop nailed me at 138 mph! Not bad, and thank the lord the cop also had a '74 914 - wrote me up for 75 in a 65 (WHEW!!!)
Ok, sold the 914 to make ends meet in my early 20's. And as someone else in this discussion mentioned, once the Porsche bug bites, you're a goner. Since 1986 I've wanted a 928, but I knew what it was going to take to maintain one ($$$). So after about 10 yrs of being Porsche-less, and being in a financially "ok" position, I realized it was time to get the 928. Absolutely love it - but I'VE HAD TO WAIT SINCE 1986 TO GET ONE!!!
So I guess my point is, even though you may want a 928 NOW, you may have a whole lot more fun with a more affordable car - and if you're like the rest of us one this board - you will get your 928 someday . . . just be patient.
11-12-2003, 05:00 PM
#58
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patience
Beth:
I said the Porsche bug bites deeply. I must agree with your evaluation of the 914 2.0L; one of the most fun cars to drive of ANY car I have ever driven. Puts a grin from ear to ear. And I have a 2.7L 914/6. But the 2.0 4 cyl. 914 will beat it off of a line every time. It is a balanced machine.
I, too, was bitten when I was in high school by associating with a guy who raced his Speedster in SCCA racing. I knew then that my Chevy wasn't what I wanted, but I had to wait until several years later in school for my first 356. And I still couldn't afford to maintain the car properly, though I didn't realize it at the time. I would sneak out at night after studying and just drive around in it for fun. Then give up all the other fun things I should have had, like saving money. I was in Tucson, Arizona at the time, and found a road called "Roller Coaster Road" in an outlying area. What a blast to run that at night in a Porsche.
Guess I am still infected as I am nursing my 928 along now though I have not resumed my late night frolics. But there is no end to this disease, save the size of your bank account, as I still want a Carrera Six.....someday.
I said the Porsche bug bites deeply. I must agree with your evaluation of the 914 2.0L; one of the most fun cars to drive of ANY car I have ever driven. Puts a grin from ear to ear. And I have a 2.7L 914/6. But the 2.0 4 cyl. 914 will beat it off of a line every time. It is a balanced machine.
I, too, was bitten when I was in high school by associating with a guy who raced his Speedster in SCCA racing. I knew then that my Chevy wasn't what I wanted, but I had to wait until several years later in school for my first 356. And I still couldn't afford to maintain the car properly, though I didn't realize it at the time. I would sneak out at night after studying and just drive around in it for fun. Then give up all the other fun things I should have had, like saving money. I was in Tucson, Arizona at the time, and found a road called "Roller Coaster Road" in an outlying area. What a blast to run that at night in a Porsche.
Guess I am still infected as I am nursing my 928 along now though I have not resumed my late night frolics. But there is no end to this disease, save the size of your bank account, as I still want a Carrera Six.....someday.
11-12-2003, 05:03 PM
#59
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Beth, if you're not going to recommend the 924 because it is too slow it doesn't make much sense to recommend the 914. I don't know how you got 138mph out of your 914, but even the 110 horsepower 6-cylinder 914/6 only had a top speed of 119, with the 2.0 liter 4-cylinder car topping out at just 115. The 0-60 time for the US 924 and the 2.0 liter 4-cylinder 914 are both around 10 seconds, and the 924 tops out around 120.