Doug Hillary

Hi,
John - should you want to use Mobil 1 15w-50 when racing make sure that it is the "new" SuperSyn version not the "old" TriSyn

The differences are very significant but matter little to non racers

The racing blend M1 (R) of 0w-30 may be unsuitable for our cars I - will know soon

Initially, be wary of any oil with less than a 15w-40 viscosity and without ACEA A3/B3 on the container

Regards

Doug Hillary

Hi,

As an initial summary, and as hoped for, this thread has revealed a little more information than just oil types and grades etc.
Perhaps these extra issues should be examined in detail.

For instance,
a ) has anybody done a maximum usable volume test on the sump's capacity ?
( is it possible to run 1 or 2 litres above stock level ? )

b ) has anybody actually calibrated their dipstick ?
( is the dipstick accurate ? )

c ) has anybody done continuous graph running tests on oil temperatures when racing ? ( PC based )

d ) has anybody done continuous graph running tests on oil pressures when racing ? ( PC based )
( somebody mentioned they were taking oil pressure readings with a 100psi gauge! - the relief valve operates higher than this! )

e ) has anybody done continuous graph oil flow testing when racing or on a dyno ? ( PC based ) ( difficult and complex but possible on a dyno )

f ) has anybody modified the characteristics of the oil thermostat or removed it ?

g ) What oil filters are commonly used in racing ?
( some filters have better flow characteristics than others - certain brands show a <20>psi loss on other engines )

h ) Has anybody by passed the full flow oil filter ?

If anybody has data in any of these areas it may produce really meaningful "collective data" for us all to share

The focus on possibly suitable racing oils initially suggests the following brands may be of interest ( in alfa order ):

AMSOIL
S2000 20w-50

CASTROL
"R" 10w-60
Castor based ( race only oil - see Castrol )

KLOTZ
Techniplate 10w-40
Techniplate 20w-50


LUBRICATION ENGINEERS
8800 Monolec Ultra 15w-40

MOBIL
M1 Racing Formula 0w-30
M1 SuperSyn 15w-50
Delvac 1 5w-40
Note: Lighter grades of M1 should not be used

MOTUL
V300 ( a number of grades are available )

REDLINE
Racing 15w-40
Racing 15w-50
Racing 20w-60 ( may reduce flow rate )

ROYAL PURPLE
Racing Formula 51

SCHAEFFERS
700
705

VALVOLINE
VR1 10W-40
HP Racing 50 ( actually a 25w-60 )

Initially, and for the above "mini-shortlist" ( which is solely based on "reputation" - not specification which will follow later ) it seems that the "higher" viscosity oils - 10w-40> may be a wise choice
This may lead to slightly less HP and slightly less oil flow - but it will assist with maintaining OP

The OP/flow issue is one reason why people move to lower viscosity oils but if these are not robust enough the oil's film strength becomes a limiting factor maybe causing lubricant failure at the extremes. Especially at high engine revs!
It is a case of high pressure/low flow or simply the reverse as the oil pump has of course a specific design positive displacement capacity
It is extremely important to ensure that the oil pump's suction screen is kept "clinically" clean as even minor varnish build up can significantly reduce its efficiency
Varnish build up can reduce efficiency enough to significantly starve the oil pump

When and if we get more reliable data this will all become a little clearer and may lead to using the lower viscosities offered within some oil Brands based on their specifications!

In our "V8 ( 650+hp ) SuperCar" series in Australia, some teams are successfully using 0w-30 special formula "Brand" oils - even in some long distance events

Mobil's new M1 Racing 0w-30 soon to be sold in the USA is thought to be a recently outdated "pure race oil" formulation with a slightly different additive package allowing for moderate street use

Regards

Rich9928p

My problem with AMSoil is their use of multi-level marketing, much the same as used to sell soaps and cleaning agents. By sending out a force of "missionary" sales people, many unsubstantiated claims and stories are perpetuated to sell their products at a much higher price than other products that are sold via normal channels. Why has AMS chosen to sell their product this way? That I don't know.

I'm aware of a mail list that goes as far as banning AMS dealers from making unsubstantiated claims on their boards and removes them when posted.

There is little or no real, scientific, comparisons of brand A vs. B vs. C. From the posts here, we find that that engines have failed using most any brand of oil. Doug went a long way to show that the 3000 mile change mania is not necessary for today's oils. We may be on a start to do the same for high performance applications.

GlenL

Rich,

You can now get Amsoil over-the-counter at auto parts stores or save a little money by ordering it off their web site.

Let me add that I'm not an Amsoil rep. But I have thought about it to get my 5-7 gallons a year cheaper, and maybe for my similar-minded tracksters.

mark kibort

with most of the falures involving mobil 1, we will see. plus, lots of data surrounding the lower hot oil pressures with mobil 1. Ive had great success with kendall 20-50 , redline and Amzoil. those shear tests and 4 ball wear tests are pretty convincing. Also, redline over mobil 1 has many of the same types of statistics. funny, mobil 1 doesnt have one stat proving their oil is better than anyones! Also, that test of old vs new oil is fine for street cars. Like to see it conducted on a test of oil that has been raced on.

MK

Doug Hillary

Hi,
is there any more objective and quantifiable data on this issue out there prior to pulling together a meaningful short list ?

Please assist or is it not worth my effort?

Regards

BC

I think that statistics just don't lie Doug. If you can quantify as many people as you can with as many data points, the info will point to the truth. Insurance actuarials act the same way. Its just fact, and cannot be argued or shifted.

M758

I used AMSoil in my 944-spec this weekend. Can warm in first two session, but oil pressure stayed 3.8Bar. (mobil 1 would give me 3 bar at those water temps)

I pull the T-stat since it was giving me probelms and during a 40 min race oil pressure ran at 4 bar entire race.

I ran an 2 hr enduro sunday. Oil was at 4 bar entire race. At 1hr 15 min I pitted for my 5 min stop and added gas and 1/2 quart of oil to return to top of fill level and went along. Car ran fine.

I friend also tried Amsoil 20W50 racing in his 944-spec. Oil pressure stayed hp high. They forgot to check oil level intheir pit stop and finished race UNDER the min mark. No engine problems and they maintained oill pressure. They added oil and drove the car home 45 miles with no issues. Driver is going to check for metal in the oil just in case.

No definitive results, but I will be staying with Amsoil despite the extra cost over Mobil 1.

Doug Hillary

Hi,
M758 - Amsoil ? We need to describe the oil to get a handle on it - Amsoil comes in many models

Was it S2000 20w-50??

Its like people saying "Mobil 1" - all Mobil 1 products ARE NOT THE SAME!!!

Regards

mark kibort

Looks like Amzoil is winning product. 3 bar to 3.8 bar is significant.
amzoil 20-50 racing oil is the product

MK

Doug Hillary

Hi Mark,

is it possible that you have and will publish some of the quantifiable data requested in a previous post I made on here?

Regards

M758

Yep Amsoil S2000 20W50 Racing

Not sure which mobil except it was 15w50

Standard off the shelf. I never knew there was a difference.

mark kibort

Hi Doug,

I dont think I have all the information. I have seen the different oil pressures, but some dont think this is a valid analysis.

mk

Doug Hillary

Hi,
M758 - thanks, thats the full description needed

There has been a number of formulations for Mobil 1. Three at least for 15w-50 ( not sold in OZ - we only get 5w-50 now ).
The latest SuperSyn version of M1 is substantially different and more robust than the TriSynthetic it replaced

Mark - all data ( other than emotional ) is welcomed here in order to formulate a "short list" of various Brands and types that may be suitable for racing a 928 engine

Regards

Doug Hillary

Hi,
this thread was established to nominate a "short list" of engine oils that MAY be suitable for use in the 928 when racing. This list covers those mentioned primarily on this Board - there will be others not mentioned here that may be suitable too

1 - Very little "factual-constructive" data was provided on this thread and others that can be used reliably. One must assume then that not much quantifiable research has been done or that perhaps the data does not exist any longer - surely nobody would withhold it!

2 - Oil starvation may indeed be that - or it could be cavitation or both.
Until an actual catalogue of racing oil pressure/flow is made we can but only speculate!

3 - It does appear that some people were less than careful about selecting the correct viscosity and "Model" of the oil they used. This transcends all Brands of oil!

NOTE A - Use of the correct viscosity is very important for durability

3 - For those that "knock" a certain Brand of oil, it important that the oil's specification and viscosity is known to be really sure if the real error was yours - or the oils!

NOTE B - my brief research did not show that one particular Brand of oil was "failure prone". It did highlight a lack of care/knowledge about selecting oil types and viscosities

4 - Ester based synthetic oils MAY have a better margin for error at high engine revs. They are usually more expensive than other oils. These Brands/types are marked thus **

5 - Very low viscosity oils ( 0w-20, 5w-30 etc. ) while perhaps releasing marginally more power, are somewhat suspect lubricators at high revs ( 4500+ ) due to their lower HT/HS viscosity at 150C. This especially applies in 928 engines and I suggest that they should not be used

6 - I do not believe in oil additives for normal use but some evidence suggests that a Moly/Antimony additive such as Scheaffers No 132 may make the low Moly oils more robust at high revs and load. Adding too much however will be as bad or worse than none so follow the instructions. More will NOT be better and these additives should NOT be used in API's SL/CH> rated oils!

NOTE C - Any Moly additive considered should be endorsed on its container as "in solution" not "in suspension"

7 - Calibration and graduating the sump's capacity/dipstick while investigating additional oil capacity may be beneficial if starvation/cavitation exists. Any overfilling from standard volume must not cause aeration or risk hydraulic lockup. Oil "catch cans" are available too and appear to work well via the EGR valve on some other engine brands - maybe they can be adapted for the 928

NOTE D - I do not know for sure but probably about 1 to 1.5 litre of oil is circulating in the oil gallery etc. at any time.

8 - Of all of these points, they will/may only improve what already exists but will not make up for design faults in the engine if they really do exist

9 - Engines will loose pressure under extreme heat and load and this may depend on initial viscosity of the oil, at the same time flow will be greater. This is one issue with fluid dynamics that should not be forgotten - especially with oils having high film strength. More flow = more cooling ability

10 - Oil maker ExxonMobil supplies base stock fluids to Amsoil and many other oil blenders.
Fluid dynamics are absolute!

Key;
** see 4 ) above
NIA = No information readily avaialble
MCO = Check Motor cycle oil - may be suitable too
Flash Point { }Volatility [ ] HT/HS ( ) TBN (( ))
In all cases it is generally " highest is best"

The highest HT/HS is usually found in higher viscosity 40+ oils. Oils reading above "4" are robust and oils above "5" are extremely robust

AMSOIL **
S2000 20w-50 {453} [ 5.9 ] ( 5.1 ) (( 11 ))

CASTROL ( MCO )
"R" 10w-60 {NA}[ NA } ( 5.4 ) (( 11 )) Other data not available
Castor based ( race only oil - see Castrol for full details - event oil only )

FUCHS ( NIA )
Titan GT1 0w-20
Titan Supersyn SL 5w-40

KENDALL ( NIA )
GT1

KLOTZ ( NIA )
Techniplate 10w-40
Techniplate 20w-50

LUBRICATION ENGINEERS ( NIA )
8800 Monolec Ultra 15w-40

MOBIL ( Delvac** ) ( MCO )
M1 Racing Formula 0w-30 - Unknown formulation oil to be released in Jan 2004
M1 SuperSyn "Performance Driving Formula" 15w-50 {450 } [ NA ] ( 5.1 ) (( 11 ))
Delvac 1 5w-40** ( 440 } [ NA ] ( 4.1+ ) (( 12 ))

MOTUL** ( NIA )
V300
5W-40
10W-40 Chrono
15W-50 Competition
15W-60 LeMans ( good with over fuelled engines )

REDLINE**
Racing 15w-40 {527} [ 6 ] ( NA ) (( NA ))
Racing 15w-50 {522} [ 6 ] ( NA ) (( NA ))
Racing 20w-60 {518} [ 6 ] ( NA ) (( NA ))

ROYAL PURPLE ( NIA )
Racing Formula 51

SCHAEFFERS ( NIA )
700
705

SILKOLENE ( FUCHS ) ( NIA )
Plus 4 Plus 10W-50

VALVOLINE
VR1 10W-30{480} [ NA ] ( NA ) (( 12 ))
VR1 20W-50 {500} [ NA ] ( NA ) (( 12 ))
Synpower Racing 60 ( actually a 25w-60 ) ( NIA )

NOTE E - When compiling this list it became apparent that some makers ( Amsoil, Redline, Motul etc.) do not publish standard SAE/API/ACEA data that can be used as a comparative base. Some of these blenders/makers do not have API and/or ACEA "Approval" and vice-versa

NOTE F - Some of these oils are NOT recommended for day to day street use. Always read the detail on the container to satisfy your application needs especially if the car is a daily runner

NOTE G - All reasonable care has been taken to ensure accuracy when putting this data together ( late November 2003 ) - however, check the details for yourself as no responsibility will be taken for any inaccuracies

This list should be enhanced and updated from time to time

Regards