Catorce

It's awesome the way it is Greg, and quite frankly, considering Randy Pobst set a willow time of 1:23 in a 918 spyder which has the better part of 1000 horsepower, I think that a lofty goal like a lap time depends as much or more on the driver than it ever would on the car. High teens at Willow is into full semi-pro / pro territory, and I for one am just not that good of a driver. I also stated I have zero desire to wring out that kind of time on the car; if I am setting lap records, I am driving 11/10ths.

What's awesome here is that to my knowledge, Bob Devore never got to see / drive the car in its final iteration. There is no evidence the car ever drove under power with the mystery 750hp 16 valve motor. Just having the engine in the car and running under its own power is a feat in and of itself.

I'll explain this to you in a way that you can understand it. Devore Car = Spruce Goose. Make sense? People go see the Spruce Goose not because it flew millions of miles, they go see it because it is a curio, a feat of engineering, a novelty with history. Some people might label it a failure at flying, but that does not diminish it's appeal. It's HISTORIC. It's the first of a production run of exactly ZERO.

But it was the dream of one man who did it before anyone else, and that man, in my case, is Bob Devore.

The car is a totally unique looking retro beast that is peerless in the 928 world. I don't need to win races in it; the second I unload it from the trailer I've already won the most important part when everyone comes to appreciate it's uniqueness.

Oh, and if I wanted to win races, I'd pick a 911 as a starting point.

GregBBRD

Hmm....

You might dream or wish your 928 into being a piece of history, but it's just another dream that never did anything.

And you want to continue that history.

There was certainly a whole pile of bullsh!t about this car....750 horsepower from a two valve engine. Never could or did happen. Simply not possible to get that much air through any 928 2 valve head....we all knew that (and laughed) when this claim was made.

You probably dont know how that horsepower was "calculated", right?

Well, it was calculated backwards from some arbitrary fuel consumption....nothing that was ever actually measured!

In short, complete bullsh!t.

You need to study Mark Anderson's lap times, at Willow...Getting into the low 20's was a piece of cake....and pissing off 25 million dollars worth of 911 RSR and Cup Car owners every weekend using one set of recycled trash can slicks was some of the very best stuff ever done at POC!

Because of that, Mark's old car is a REAL piece of 928 history...he won the Porsche Cup by using that car....against dozens of drivers with 911s. (And the list of people who have won the Porsche Cup is pretty exclusive company.)

To me, it seems like you could have just stuck in a stock 5.0, saved a whole bunch of money, and had the same result.....a long time unproven hanger queen that has been re-invented into another unproven hanger queen.

However, I do understand your thought process....you never will have to prove anything you've done to this car actually works.

And that will be a whole bunch less embarrassing, for all involved.

GregBBRD

Hmm....

You might dream or wish your 928 into being a piece of history, but it's just another dream that never did anything.

And you want to continue that history?

There was certainly a whole pile of bullsh!t about this car....750 horsepower from a two valve engine. Never could or did happen. Simply not possible to get that much air through any 928 2 valve head....we all knew that (and laughed) when rhe claim was made.

You probably dont know how that horsepower was "calculated", right?

Well, it was calculated backwards from some arbitrary fuel consumption....nothing that was ever actually measured!

In short, complete bullsh!t.

You need to study Mark Anderson's lap times, at Willow...Getting into the low 20's was a piece of cake....and pissing off 25 million dollars worth of 911 owners every weekend on trash can slicks was some of the very best stuff ever done at POC! Because of that, Mark's old car is a REAL piece of 928 history...he won the Porsche Cup by using that car....against dozens of drivers with 911s. (And the list of people who have won the Porsche Cup is pretty exclusive company.)

Seems like you could have just stuck in a stock 5.0, saved a whole bunch of money, and had the same result.....a long time unproven hanger queen that has been re-invented into another unproven hanger queen.

However, I do understand your thought process....you never will have to prove anything you've done to this car actually works.

Whole lot less embarrassing....

AO

Woot! Finally, I'm in the 0.5% crowd! My stock 928 "Coke car" LIVES from ~4,500 to ~6,200 and occasionally higher. Rarely lower.

Cheburator

First, congratulations on the results.
Second - for historic racing - I would be actually embarrassed if your car doesn't wipe the floor with any 911 of the same period. I know that in the US everything is bigger and better, but here is some insight from our side of the pond on the subject of historic racing...

Early 1980s - factory backed 928S in Germany held the VLN lap record at the Nurburgring, winning 5 of the 6 races that it entered, also raced at Daytona

Mid 1980s - home made 928S in Germany finishes 7th overall in the 24hrs of the Nurburging competing against BMW 635CSi, Porsche 911 CS, BMW E30 M3

Late 1980s - home made 928CS in the UK driven by Tony Dron wins the UK Porsche Club Championship beating 911SCs, 3.2 Carrera CS and 944 Turbo Cups

Early 1990s- home made 928GTS in the UK wins the UK Porsche Club Championship beating 964RS Cups and 993RS

Early 1990s - several home made 928GTS Stroseks in Germany have success in the VLN and Divinol Cup regularly beating 964 and 993 RS Cup cars as well as E30M3s and E36 M3

Early 2000s - home made 928 in the UK driven by Paul Anderson wins the Historic Sports Car Club Championship for 70s roadsports for 3yrs on the trot, beating period 911s as well as genuine ex-works Datsun 260Z, TVR Tuscans, as well ex-works Lotuses and Sunbeams

Today - Mark Chilton (BIG GT2 on here) is a regular winner of the Classic Sports Car Club Future Classic Series in his Strosek based 928GTS, thrashing 911s of all sorts as well as TVR Tuscans, E46 M3s, Marcos, Ex-works Ford Sierras as well as ex-DTM Audi V8s

Even yours truly managed 3d in class and 16th overall from 68 starters at in the Spa Summer Classic from our first attempt, finishing ahead of quite a few 911s, including an ex Le Mans 993RSR

So in historic racing - write a well developed 928 off at your own peril...

ptuomov

The car is going to be stupidly fast. It has a huge amount of average power and furthermore a torque curve that is very flat so things like traction control isn’t required to drive it fast.

SwayBar

I' m glad that you see the whole point of this intake, because...

FINALLY, after ALL THESE YEARS, one can order a big 928 stroker motor, and have power increasing at a meteoric rate ALL THE WAY TO REDLINE!!!

This was literally impossible to do, up until now...

The history I've seen shows that all the as-bought strokers power falling flat on its face and decreasing after 4,500 RPM.
​
Really Greg?

Well, we can glean from that comment that you are not a racer, and nothing wrong with that.

However, if I were looking for someone to build me a motor for the track and comparing vendors for who would do the job, because of your comment above, you would be instantly deleted from the list. All racers on the track operate their cars at 4,500 RPM to redline - how in the world as you as an engine builder are unaware of this fact? The only time a racer is below 4,500 RPM at the track is coming in and out of the pits.

Oh my gosh, is that the reason why all those strokers stopped making power at 4,500 RPM is because you thought the racers all up-shift at 4,500 RPM therefore there's no need to continue to make horsepower above 4,500 RPM? If so, you are definitely not my vendor of choice to build me a stroker.

Just because you wish it, doesn't make it so, thankfully.

Yes, absolutely!

Congratulations to all of us since we are no longer forced to accept buying and installing tractor motors in our cars!

The goods news Greg, and you should be estatic, you now have a proper intake for your customer's motors - I'm speculating that Carl would sell a couple to you, at his usual inflated price, but if you buy in bulk, MAYBE he'd be willing to cut you a deal. But don't quote me...

Thank you both to Carl and Catorce!

Catorce

Cheburator,

I know this, but I appreciate you bringing it up again. I put my money where my mouth is and I spent 95K on the car to this point. If It isn't a "well developed" 928, I don't know what is. It will see some action....for sure.

THANKS for the encouragment, I liked the list a lot!

Catorce

Oh, he's far from ecstatic. In fact, he has returned to his previous ugliness, which, considering he is a site sponsor and in the business of selling products to 928 owners (which I am not), you would think that his attitude would be different.

As for me, I am respecting the terms of service from Internet Brands (Rennlist owners) which prohibits attacking another site sponsor.

Happy Thanksgiving folks,

And THANKS, Sway Bar!!!!

OBehave2.0

Congrats to Carl and Adam! Some of us see some of these "project" cars as Iconic or historical. some not so much. I applaud Adam for what he's doing and
am envious as I wanted this car long before he was able to acquire it, but it just didnt work out. Just as Mark's white zombie race car is special so is this car,
maybe not because it won races but everyone admired the man and the fact that he took on the platform and tried to better it.
So Adam has picked up the torch and is putting his effort into it as Bob did with Carl's assistance and that deserves some acknowledgement. Its all subjective,
As I felt the Hanson car and the Holbert car were special and worth saving, so does this car. Just my opinion.
Is there a price on these manifolds yet? I would love to put one on the Hanson Stroker for kicks.
Happy Thanksgiving!!

GregBBRD

"Attacking" and having an opinion are two completely different things. This is not one of Carl's sales threads for something, this is an open thread where people are allowed to be both enthusiastic, critical, make observations, and make suggestions.

In my humble opinion, the loss of torque under 4700 (compared to a stone stock manifold) on a huge engine, absolutely dooms this manifold. I'm guessing that from 3,000 to 4700, the loss is probably much worse, which is why there is no data posted. (What dyno, worth the time to bolt an engine onto doesn't register under 4300rpms???? Seriously, you, as smart as you seem to try to be, except that?

The people who believe this manifold will make their 5.0 liter engine (or even their mild 6.5 liter engine) run better are perfectly able to order one up and try it, right?

Since you've made the very smart decision to not run this car, you will never find the following out:
At all of our "home" tracks, you are going to either use two...or at the most, three gears. You will spend considerable time under 4,000 rpms....especially coming out of corners. Forget power at 6700. Make torque at 3500-6000rpms....especially since your engine isn't dry sumped! (It will literally last minutes at Willow Springs at 6700 rpms through turn 2 and turn 8, without a dry sump.)

Now, if you told me that you had changed direction and decided to go drag racing with this car.....I'd be the first one to be all over your result!

Truthfully, all of this is a moot point and a waste of band width, since you aren't going to run this car around, except on parade laps....does it matter how the car actually performs? Who is going to really care? Who will actually know?

BTW, I haven't changed....I still hope you are successful at what you are trying to do. The manifold is a beautiful piece of art and will look great on your engine....or even in your living room!

Like I said, it's a great effort! I drew and built several intake manifolds that just didn't work quite right (also), before I found one that actually did work really well. I too, drew up a "tunnel ram", however, I could never figure out how to get the runner length I needed and still keep it under the stock hood....your exact problems....and the problem with all American style tunnel rams. Read every single manufacturer's application for every single tunnel ram made...."works between 5,000 and 8,000 rpms".

Since you've been overly sensitive, from the very beginning, about any alternative viewpoint to what you are doing and only want Fanbois, I'll bow out of your thread...again.

However, I hope you are the kind of person that will continue your development and improve on your first prototype...it's not shameful....it's what sometimes happens.

ptuomov

I don’t think many race engine dyno operators start pulls under 4000 rpm. I think this is because for most race engines, what it makes is irrelevant and also because many race engines can’t actually take WOT safely at low rpms.

One can just stare at the torque curve and it’s obvious that there isn’t any lack of torque at any relevant rpm that’s going to make the car slow even in the hands of a poor driver. As far as the engine goes, this car is just going to be stupid fast.

It’s true that this is just the first iteration, there are a lot of things that one could tweak and make even more power. Say +10hp from 105mm throttle body, 300 rpm more to the redline from modest crankcase vacuum, etc.

Catorce

Greg,

I have never seen any torque numbers on this manifold below the RPM that were published, just like you. I am literally looking at the same data you are. When Carl gets back from the holiday, perhaps he can chime in on why this is, but I find your suggestion that we are intentionally trying to conceal these results is really insulting. I'm not being overly "sensitive", you are the one who is being passive aggressive here and I am not sure why you are trying to alienate your target customers with your rhetoric.

I want to clarify that I paid for the development of this manifold FOR MY CAR. It is not for resale. It is not a sales item. Carl, at his sole discretion, can decide whether he wants to copy my manifold and offer it for sale. That is HIS decision. This was not made with resale in mind. I actually do not know if he wants to sell these or not.

Also, I said VINTAGE RACING. I am not sure how you dumbed that down into "parade laps". As one other poster stated, you clearly don't know anything about vintage racing.

Lastly, as to your comment of "as smart as you try to be" - if that isn't a direct insult, I don't know what is. I have three patents pending on Porsche air cooled motors, I am the only maker of Porsche engine cases on the planet besides Porsche and I even though I have refused to take pre-orders, I have the first 300 spoken for. The first cases will be the powerplants for the 750K retro 911s we all know and admire. I patented a new piston squirter, a superior oil filter console, and my case has two patented features that not even Porsche thought of, so please spare me the retard level explanations.

As I said, I will revisit the manifold and its performance when the motor is in the car.

ptuomov

I’m most often under 4500 rpms. That’s because my cars are street cars and bad things happen above 4500 rpm. It’s like the 500 dollar ATM withdrawal limit after 4am. You don’t want to exceed it frequently in your home town, but you definitely want the option of doing so on rare occasions!

Compared to street cars, race cars live in Las Vegas and don’t take anything out the ATM unless it’s over $500 and after 4am...

Strosek Ultra

Mr. Brown with your massive amount of knowledge you must be aware of the crappy dyno headers used are favouring the top end. Properly designed smaller merge type collectors will add plenty of torque at the mid range with some expense at the top end.
Åke