OVERHEAT AT RACE AT THUNDERHILL - WATER PUMP ?
10-04-2016, 04:53 PM
#136
Captain Obvious
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10-04-2016, 04:57 PM
#137
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Mark whether you burp or fart makes little difference. It simply amuses you while the system purges itself. Try listening to Dr. Bob, major utility companies who use steam to generate electricity already do 
Reading you "debating" that steam is air is entertaining.
Reading you "debating" that steam is air is entertaining.
10-04-2016, 05:00 PM
#138
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Probably good that Joe the Cocker does not know how to type or Kibort would have somebody else to disagree with....
10-04-2016, 05:05 PM
#139
Administrator - "Tyson"
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I think he needs to move up to a 12 volt dry cell lantern battery.
My only response to this would cause me to infract and ban myself.
My only response to this would cause me to infract and ban myself.
10-04-2016, 05:57 PM
#140
Nordschleife Master
10-04-2016, 07:32 PM
#141
Former Sponsor
yes it is... no argument here.... you hit the nail on the head. once you get boil over, you start over
your advice....... pop cap and get to running temp
my advice. pop cap and burp
same thing
your pet Dog can get this but others might not..... if you have air in the lines, again, you need to as you say, "start over".
by the way, i do get air in the system only on very hot days after a session. i do burp the system and add some water to keep the level at the 3/4 mark.
never have issues when doing this at the track, even the 110F races we had at thunderhill a few years ago.
on the race track if you start with air in the system, you need to start over. if you dont and you are racing, you will boil over in a few laps on a 100F day
by the way Greg... why do you think the impeller moved. usually rust means its NOT moving. its on the shaft, very snug. cant imagine it moving. do you think the impeller moved forward or was it made that way to start?
your advice....... pop cap and get to running temp
my advice. pop cap and burp
same thing
your pet Dog can get this but others might not..... if you have air in the lines, again, you need to as you say, "start over".
by the way, i do get air in the system only on very hot days after a session. i do burp the system and add some water to keep the level at the 3/4 mark.
never have issues when doing this at the track, even the 110F races we had at thunderhill a few years ago.
on the race track if you start with air in the system, you need to start over. if you dont and you are racing, you will boil over in a few laps on a 100F day
by the way Greg... why do you think the impeller moved. usually rust means its NOT moving. its on the shaft, very snug. cant imagine it moving. do you think the impeller moved forward or was it made that way to start?
Combine that with the increased inertia of your engine that changes rpms much quicker than stock and any water pump with a cast iron impeller is going to have a tough time.
I can't tell from your picture, but I'm guessing that the Laso pump you took off, not too long ago, is the "third" generation Laso, which has a bronze bushing between the cast iron impeller and the bearing shaft. These pumps were a "repair" by Laso when they found that the impellers (without the bushing) pressed directly onto the shaft (second generation) spun the impeller very easily.
The press fit of these pumps with the "extra" bushing was very high...and I've never seen one of these pumps loose the impeller or have the impeller move....under any circumstances. I thought that this was probably the "best" water pump ever.....cast iron impeller that never moved.....but Roger talked Laso into building plastic impellers.
I've not seen one of Laso's plastic impellers come loose....but again, I don't run these pumps on my big fast reving engines.
10-04-2016, 08:52 PM
#142
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we went over that. no need to go there.
last i looked this was not a hydroelectric plant, it was a 928 engine and all i have done is report what happened. others , including yourself , blame the over heat to loss of water due to leaks, yet there are none, and that the system cant have soft hoses at uper white line temps, yet i did, and that the overflow cant be half full in those situation , yet it was. so funny that i can see all this IN reality, yet you think it cant happen!
Jim, it's very simple.... water pushed out, air replaced the void. its is possible because it happened. even greg said, you get a boil over and "start again" , if you are reading what he wrote, means, warm up with cap off to get bubbles and air out of the hoses and engine.... Quick refresher...... i was on the track and couldnt "start over"........ ok???? make sense?
Last edited by mark kibort; 10-04-2016 at 09:40 PM.
10-04-2016, 09:38 PM
#143
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Thread Starter
we know the cast iron impeller or dctal iron . 32-212F micro" /F degree = 5.8
i dont know what low carbon steel 1018 thermal expansion rate is 32-212F micro" / Fdegree = ??
but i have a hard time believing that the parts were spinning and when it cold down they are locked together. Possible i guess. Im stilll wondering how rust is a tell tale sign that i had movement. however, the gap worries me, by design or by movement... the impeller is hitting the block, just barely.
as far as "quicker rev acceleration " goes, look , you have to really go back to the physics again... there is NO measurable difference in the rate of acceleration of the engine. remeber, my engine is not "higher inertia" the inertia is the same as a stock engine.
Let me explain why. during the shift of gears, 1st has the greatest acceleration. the difference of 1st to 2nd gear is greater than any HP gain ive added... so one could say, if you are autocrossing, and using 1st gear you would have the problem.
next, the real issue is in neutral, where the engine can rev at its fastest rate. but if you compare rev times of a high HP engine vs a low HP engine, it also is not greatly different... blippig the same inertial engine will not be much different . plus, these forces are very tiny on the impeller due to its weight and diameter.
Even on the worst case condition, a rev blip costs what, .5 second? 4500 to 6000rpm? the forces on the shaft are infinitesimally small compared to moving the fluid at steady state at 6000rpm. So greg, you are guessing here. i know it intuitively seems like a higher HP engine will have greater acceleration on the water pump, but it wont. 3rd gear runs 7 seocnds from 60mph to 120mph... with 600hp that only changes to 4 seconds. . see the problem with thinking that is a cause?
now as far as the picture of the Lasso pump.. yes, that was a lasso from 2008 and the impeller didnt move.. only the bearing went bad and leaked (and made noise)
again, we are talking about a very lightweight and relatively small diameter impeller compared to the shaft diameter. the loads on that shaft are not even radial and a little axial ,and the forces are WELL in the range that the shaft and bearing should be able to handle. but years and temp cycles are not friends to the mechanism.. However, think about the plastic pump impeller. PLASTiC!!!!!!! it is subject to the force, vibration and heat cycles and plastic weakens over time and that insert that they cast in the plastic, cracks and then the pump impeller spins on the steel insert.. thats what happened to the porsche impeller and pump. not going that direction again. that's a failure that makes sense. Not the steel shaft and cast iron impeller. that shouldnt move on the shaft, ever! the bearing is the only thing that should fail.
by the way, I have 20years experience, and made my living, on some of the most demanding applications using steel shafts, pressed on gears and all sorts of accelerated loads ..... our water pump is a cake walk of simplicity , except for the fact that there is water and many heat cycles . I'm talking 20 years of key way, knurled press fits, bolt on , roll pinned, etc etc.
you can do the quick calculation for a spinning mass the sized of the impller, weighing .25lbs 3" diameter, and accelerating from 4500 to 6000rpm in .25 or .5 seconds
its really not much . the load on the water is going to be much greater.
remeber my eRAM? it was the same 3.5" diameter and accelerated from 0 to 25,000rpm in .5 seconds made of plastic and produced 5 lbs of thrust. i used an 3/16" shaft and a set screw with an aluminum coupling. calculate the inertia there and the force required for the job... much higher than our water pump acceleration.
i dont know what low carbon steel 1018 thermal expansion rate is 32-212F micro" / Fdegree = ??
but i have a hard time believing that the parts were spinning and when it cold down they are locked together. Possible i guess. Im stilll wondering how rust is a tell tale sign that i had movement. however, the gap worries me, by design or by movement... the impeller is hitting the block, just barely.
as far as "quicker rev acceleration " goes, look , you have to really go back to the physics again... there is NO measurable difference in the rate of acceleration of the engine. remeber, my engine is not "higher inertia" the inertia is the same as a stock engine.
Let me explain why. during the shift of gears, 1st has the greatest acceleration. the difference of 1st to 2nd gear is greater than any HP gain ive added... so one could say, if you are autocrossing, and using 1st gear you would have the problem.
next, the real issue is in neutral, where the engine can rev at its fastest rate. but if you compare rev times of a high HP engine vs a low HP engine, it also is not greatly different... blippig the same inertial engine will not be much different . plus, these forces are very tiny on the impeller due to its weight and diameter.
Even on the worst case condition, a rev blip costs what, .5 second? 4500 to 6000rpm? the forces on the shaft are infinitesimally small compared to moving the fluid at steady state at 6000rpm. So greg, you are guessing here. i know it intuitively seems like a higher HP engine will have greater acceleration on the water pump, but it wont. 3rd gear runs 7 seocnds from 60mph to 120mph... with 600hp that only changes to 4 seconds. . see the problem with thinking that is a cause?
now as far as the picture of the Lasso pump.. yes, that was a lasso from 2008 and the impeller didnt move.. only the bearing went bad and leaked (and made noise)
again, we are talking about a very lightweight and relatively small diameter impeller compared to the shaft diameter. the loads on that shaft are not even radial and a little axial ,and the forces are WELL in the range that the shaft and bearing should be able to handle. but years and temp cycles are not friends to the mechanism.. However, think about the plastic pump impeller. PLASTiC!!!!!!! it is subject to the force, vibration and heat cycles and plastic weakens over time and that insert that they cast in the plastic, cracks and then the pump impeller spins on the steel insert.. thats what happened to the porsche impeller and pump. not going that direction again. that's a failure that makes sense. Not the steel shaft and cast iron impeller. that shouldnt move on the shaft, ever! the bearing is the only thing that should fail.
by the way, I have 20years experience, and made my living, on some of the most demanding applications using steel shafts, pressed on gears and all sorts of accelerated loads ..... our water pump is a cake walk of simplicity , except for the fact that there is water and many heat cycles . I'm talking 20 years of key way, knurled press fits, bolt on , roll pinned, etc etc.
you can do the quick calculation for a spinning mass the sized of the impller, weighing .25lbs 3" diameter, and accelerating from 4500 to 6000rpm in .25 or .5 seconds
its really not much . the load on the water is going to be much greater.
remeber my eRAM? it was the same 3.5" diameter and accelerated from 0 to 25,000rpm in .5 seconds made of plastic and produced 5 lbs of thrust. i used an 3/16" shaft and a set screw with an aluminum coupling. calculate the inertia there and the force required for the job... much higher than our water pump acceleration.
I'm guessing that the cast iron impeller expands at a greater rate than that low carbon bearing steel.....so the press fit probably gets a thou or so looser when it it hot.
Combine that with the increased inertia of your engine that changes rpms much quicker than stock and any water pump with a cast iron impeller is going to have a tough time.
I can't tell from your picture, but I'm guessing that the Laso pump you took off, not too long ago, is the "third" generation Laso, which has a bronze bushing between the cast iron impeller and the bearing shaft. These pumps were a "repair" by Laso when they found that the impellers (without the bushing) pressed directly onto the shaft (second generation) spun the impeller very easily.
The press fit of these pumps with the "extra" bushing was very high...and I've never seen one of these pumps loose the impeller or have the impeller move....under any circumstances. I thought that this was probably the "best" water pump ever.....cast iron impeller that never moved.....but Roger talked Laso into building plastic impellers.
I've not seen one of Laso's plastic impellers come loose....but again, I don't run these pumps on my big fast reving engines.
Combine that with the increased inertia of your engine that changes rpms much quicker than stock and any water pump with a cast iron impeller is going to have a tough time.
I can't tell from your picture, but I'm guessing that the Laso pump you took off, not too long ago, is the "third" generation Laso, which has a bronze bushing between the cast iron impeller and the bearing shaft. These pumps were a "repair" by Laso when they found that the impellers (without the bushing) pressed directly onto the shaft (second generation) spun the impeller very easily.
The press fit of these pumps with the "extra" bushing was very high...and I've never seen one of these pumps loose the impeller or have the impeller move....under any circumstances. I thought that this was probably the "best" water pump ever.....cast iron impeller that never moved.....but Roger talked Laso into building plastic impellers.
I've not seen one of Laso's plastic impellers come loose....but again, I don't run these pumps on my big fast reving engines.
10-04-2016, 09:48 PM
#144
Former Sponsor
we know the cast iron impeller or dctal iron . 32-212F micro" /F degree = 5.8
i dont know what low carbon steel 1018 thermal expansion rate is 32-212F micro" / Fdegree = ??
but i have a hard time believing that the parts were spinning and when it cold down they are locked together. Possible i guess. Im stilll wondering how rust is a tell tale sign that i had movement. however, the gap worries me, by design or by movement... the impeller is hitting the block, just barely.
as far as "quicker rev acceleration " goes, look , you have to really go back to the physics again... there is NO measurable difference in the rate of acceleration of the engine. remeber, my engine is not "higher inertia" the inertia is the same as a stock engine.
Let me explain why. during the shift of gears, 1st has the greatest acceleration. the difference of 1st to 2nd gear is greater than any HP gain ive added... so one could say, if you are autocrossing, and using 1st gear you would have the problem.
next, the real issue is in neutral, where the engine can rev at its fastest rate. but if you compare rev times of a high HP engine vs a low HP engine, it also is not greatly different... blippig the same inertial engine will not be much different . plus, these forces are very tiny on the impeller due to its weight and diameter.
Even on the worst case condition, a rev blip costs what, .5 second? 4500 to 6000rpm? the forces on the shaft are infinitesimally small compared to moving the fluid at steady state at 6000rpm. So greg, you are guessing here. i know it intuitively seems like a higher HP engine will have greater acceleration on the water pump, but it wont. 3rd gear runs 7 seocnds from 60mph to 120mph... with 600hp that only changes to 4 seconds. . see the problem with thinking that is a cause?
now as far as the picture of the Lasso pump.. yes, that was a lasso from 2008 and the impeller didnt move.. only the bearing went bad and leaked (and made noise)
again, we are talking about a very lightweight and relatively small diameter impeller compared to the shaft diameter. the loads on that shaft are not even radial and a little axial ,and the forces are WELL in the range that the shaft and bearing should be able to handle. but years and temp cycles are not friends to the mechanism.. However, think about the plastic pump impeller. PLASTiC!!!!!!! it is subject to the force, vibration and heat cycles and plastic weakens over time and that insert that they cast in the plastic, cracks and then the pump impeller spins on the steel insert.. thats what happened to the porsche impeller and pump. not going that direction again. that's a failure that makes sense. Not the steel shaft and cast iron impeller. that shouldnt move on the shaft, ever! the bearing is the only thing that should fail.
by the way, I have 20years experience, and made my living, on some of the most demanding applications using steel shafts, pressed on gears and all sorts of accelerated loads ..... our water pump is a cake walk of simplicity , except for the fact that there is water and many heat cycles . I'm talking 20 years of key way, knurled press fits, bolt on , roll pinned, etc etc.
you can do the quick calculation for a spinning mass the sized of the impller, weighing .25lbs 3" diameter, and accelerating from 4500 to 6000rpm in .25 or .5 seconds
its really not much . the load on the water is going to be much greater.
remeber my eRAM? it was the same 3.5" diameter and accelerated from 0 to 25,000rpm in .5 seconds made of plastic and produced 5 lbs of thrust. i used an 1/8" shaft and a set screw with an aluminum coupling. calculate the inertia there and the force required for the job... much higher than our water pump acceleration.
i dont know what low carbon steel 1018 thermal expansion rate is 32-212F micro" / Fdegree = ??
but i have a hard time believing that the parts were spinning and when it cold down they are locked together. Possible i guess. Im stilll wondering how rust is a tell tale sign that i had movement. however, the gap worries me, by design or by movement... the impeller is hitting the block, just barely.
as far as "quicker rev acceleration " goes, look , you have to really go back to the physics again... there is NO measurable difference in the rate of acceleration of the engine. remeber, my engine is not "higher inertia" the inertia is the same as a stock engine.
Let me explain why. during the shift of gears, 1st has the greatest acceleration. the difference of 1st to 2nd gear is greater than any HP gain ive added... so one could say, if you are autocrossing, and using 1st gear you would have the problem.
next, the real issue is in neutral, where the engine can rev at its fastest rate. but if you compare rev times of a high HP engine vs a low HP engine, it also is not greatly different... blippig the same inertial engine will not be much different . plus, these forces are very tiny on the impeller due to its weight and diameter.
Even on the worst case condition, a rev blip costs what, .5 second? 4500 to 6000rpm? the forces on the shaft are infinitesimally small compared to moving the fluid at steady state at 6000rpm. So greg, you are guessing here. i know it intuitively seems like a higher HP engine will have greater acceleration on the water pump, but it wont. 3rd gear runs 7 seocnds from 60mph to 120mph... with 600hp that only changes to 4 seconds. . see the problem with thinking that is a cause?
now as far as the picture of the Lasso pump.. yes, that was a lasso from 2008 and the impeller didnt move.. only the bearing went bad and leaked (and made noise)
again, we are talking about a very lightweight and relatively small diameter impeller compared to the shaft diameter. the loads on that shaft are not even radial and a little axial ,and the forces are WELL in the range that the shaft and bearing should be able to handle. but years and temp cycles are not friends to the mechanism.. However, think about the plastic pump impeller. PLASTiC!!!!!!! it is subject to the force, vibration and heat cycles and plastic weakens over time and that insert that they cast in the plastic, cracks and then the pump impeller spins on the steel insert.. thats what happened to the porsche impeller and pump. not going that direction again. that's a failure that makes sense. Not the steel shaft and cast iron impeller. that shouldnt move on the shaft, ever! the bearing is the only thing that should fail.
by the way, I have 20years experience, and made my living, on some of the most demanding applications using steel shafts, pressed on gears and all sorts of accelerated loads ..... our water pump is a cake walk of simplicity , except for the fact that there is water and many heat cycles . I'm talking 20 years of key way, knurled press fits, bolt on , roll pinned, etc etc.
you can do the quick calculation for a spinning mass the sized of the impller, weighing .25lbs 3" diameter, and accelerating from 4500 to 6000rpm in .25 or .5 seconds
its really not much . the load on the water is going to be much greater.
remeber my eRAM? it was the same 3.5" diameter and accelerated from 0 to 25,000rpm in .5 seconds made of plastic and produced 5 lbs of thrust. i used an 1/8" shaft and a set screw with an aluminum coupling. calculate the inertia there and the force required for the job... much higher than our water pump acceleration.
The best I can do is tell people what I have experienced.
I'm not going to debate what I've seen....there's no point and that would be stupid.
What I've seen and experienced is just that.....my personal experiences.
People can use that information I freely give or ignore it....it makes absolutely zero difference to me.
10-04-2016, 10:40 PM
#145
Administrator - "Tyson"
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