1979 $59,900 not even in China
08-18-2016, 05:38 PM
#46
Archive Gatekeeper
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Comps for bleeding edge-nice 78-79 cars are so sparse I'd say it's fairly bought and sold.
08-18-2016, 11:56 PM
#48
For all the "naysayers":
I've got news for you....you can't have an early car "restored" for $60,000.
(While I know that William did not spend this much money, if you were to add in just Rob's time at any kind of reasonable hourly rate, it would be way over $60K.)
To me, an unrestored car in this kind of condition is worth every penny.
I've got news for you....you can't have an early car "restored" for $60,000.
(While I know that William did not spend this much money, if you were to add in just Rob's time at any kind of reasonable hourly rate, it would be way over $60K.)
To me, an unrestored car in this kind of condition is worth every penny.
Rob and I have close to 1,500 hours total in this car, divide by 25% since we aren't as efficient as Greg, Jim or other pros, and multiply by the going (and earned) hourly rate, and tell me that a top level restoration isn't over $100k.
08-19-2016, 01:57 AM
#49
Former Vendor
Try to get a 911, with probably 2/3 of the pieces on a 928 (and much simplier) restored for 100K....
08-19-2016, 08:35 AM
#50
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Even if one choose to leave the cosmetics as they are as I likely would . It still needs some sorting on deferred maintenence etc.
08-19-2016, 12:20 PM
#51
Instructor
I do agree with you 100 percent but would add the caveat that while originality is nice, this car does not appear to compare to your car ( yours is nicer) I think you would still need a solid 20k on top of sale price to bring this car to the next level. I am not saying to mess with its originality but its not in the same field as the well restored examples.
Even if one choose to leave the cosmetics as they are as I likely would . It still needs some sorting on deferred maintenence etc.
Even if one choose to leave the cosmetics as they are as I likely would . It still needs some sorting on deferred maintenence etc.
I do agree with you 100 percent but would add the caveat that while originality is nice, this car does not appear to compare to your car ( yours is nicer) I think you would still need a solid 20k on top of sale price to bring this car to the next level. I am not saying to mess with its originality but its not in the same field as the well restored examples.
Even if one choose to leave the cosmetics as they are as I likely would . It still needs some sorting on deferred maintenence etc.
Even if one choose to leave the cosmetics as they are as I likely would . It still needs some sorting on deferred maintenence etc.
I'm guessing you are comparing to 'Kermit' that is up for circa. $50k on CL. Aside from body color and pasha what is the value adjustment?
08-19-2016, 12:41 PM
#52
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I am not knocking the car in any way but comparing it a fresh 100k restoration is not fair to either car. It's not an apples to apples comparison
The restoration will have new mechanicals throughout, fresh seals, fresh plating, fresh paint, completely fettled in every way. An original car has its own feel, charm and patina but rarely does the buyer looking for a restored car jump over to an original car.
This is not Minerva or Kermit and that's not an insult or slight. Just a fact. Two different types of car entirely. I prefer original cars when possible.
So where does 20k come from? Pull the trans, diff and engine, reseal, water pump, TB, ignition, hoses, plating and detailing. Sympathetic interior fixes, along with suspension and steering details.
Again, many if these items may be just fine to leave as it is but they are KNOWN done on a 100k restoration that some of the previous posters compared to.
For the record. I like this car from what I saw and no, I didn't see it first hand in person. I am relying on pics, sellers account and an associate who viewed the car on sight.
Nice car, well presented and fairly sold and bought.
The restoration will have new mechanicals throughout, fresh seals, fresh plating, fresh paint, completely fettled in every way. An original car has its own feel, charm and patina but rarely does the buyer looking for a restored car jump over to an original car.
This is not Minerva or Kermit and that's not an insult or slight. Just a fact. Two different types of car entirely. I prefer original cars when possible.
So where does 20k come from? Pull the trans, diff and engine, reseal, water pump, TB, ignition, hoses, plating and detailing. Sympathetic interior fixes, along with suspension and steering details.
Again, many if these items may be just fine to leave as it is but they are KNOWN done on a 100k restoration that some of the previous posters compared to.
For the record. I like this car from what I saw and no, I didn't see it first hand in person. I am relying on pics, sellers account and an associate who viewed the car on sight.
Nice car, well presented and fairly sold and bought.
08-19-2016, 02:18 PM
#53
Burning Brakes
Guy, I didn't realize you had seen this car and run the rule over it. What exactly is the $20k investment required? Could you give a list of needs as you see them?
I'm guessing you are comparing to 'Kermit' that is up for circa. $50k on CL. Aside from body color and pasha what is the value adjustment?
I'm guessing you are comparing to 'Kermit' that is up for circa. $50k on CL. Aside from body color and pasha what is the value adjustment?
BTW I agree with Guy on this one: just a quick glance and I can see over 20k disappear very quickly to make this car even close to 'concourse' and that's assuming original paint in flawless condition which would require a paint meter evaluation.
08-19-2016, 02:53 PM
#54
Rennlist Member
I think he is referring to this car. Not THE Kermit, but a very nice care nonetheless.
http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/cto/5731031605.html
http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/cto/5731031605.html
08-19-2016, 03:09 PM
#55
Instructor
Where in God's green earth is Kermit for sale for 50k? That's well less than Chuck Z was asking 8? Years ago...I was offered Kermit by it's current caretaker in Germany at 120k and last I heard was even higher now..I would mortgage my house to buy Kermit at 50k. Are you talking about Andrews '79 Euro Light Green Metallic?
BTW I agree with Guy on this one: just a quick glance and I can see over 20k disappear very quickly to make this car even close to 'concourse' and that's assuming original paint in flawless condition which would require a paint meter evaluation.
BTW I agree with Guy on this one: just a quick glance and I can see over 20k disappear very quickly to make this car even close to 'concourse' and that's assuming original paint in flawless condition which would require a paint meter evaluation.
I have an issue with most restorations - seeing as they generally taint originality. There are some like Minerva and Kermit that clearly are faithful to the core elements of the vehicle when purchased. But most OB restos I see - although clearly improving the saftey, reliability, aesthetic, etc of the car are just Frankensteins. Patchwork quilts of OBs laid on top of the early VIN core.
I actually put more stock in general early models (78-79) with low mileage and good condition that represent originality than vehicles with desirable VINs or rare paint jobs that have been layered on top of. Just because the docs say it's an early production number or special sample paint, that only matters if most of the components are still the original elements of what constitutes that unicorn. And that the sample paint is still the original sample paint!
I know that collectibility in Europe and of other Marques like Ferrari, etc share my view. The US is different, the 911 market attests to that. Patina isn't a badge of honor here!
08-19-2016, 03:17 PM
#56
Rennlist Member
There's a metallic green one for sale in CT on CL at $50k+ it may be the sister of Kermit.
I have an issue with most restorations - seeing as they generally taint originality. There are some like Minerva and Kermit that clearly are faithful to the core elements of the vehicle when purchased. But most OB restos I see - although clearly improving the saftey, reliability, aesthetic, etc of the car are just Frankensteins. Patchwork quilts of OBs laid on top of the early VIN core.
I actually put more stock in general early models (78-79) with low mileage and good condition that represent originality than vehicles with desirable VINs or rare paint jobs that have been layered on top of. Just because the docs say it's an early production number or special sample paint, that only matters if most of the components are still the original elements of what constitutes that unicorn. And that the sample paint is still the original sample paint!
I know that collectibility in Europe and of other Marques like Ferrari, etc share my view. The US is different, the 911 market attests to that. Patina isn't a badge of honor here!
I have an issue with most restorations - seeing as they generally taint originality. There are some like Minerva and Kermit that clearly are faithful to the core elements of the vehicle when purchased. But most OB restos I see - although clearly improving the saftey, reliability, aesthetic, etc of the car are just Frankensteins. Patchwork quilts of OBs laid on top of the early VIN core.
I actually put more stock in general early models (78-79) with low mileage and good condition that represent originality than vehicles with desirable VINs or rare paint jobs that have been layered on top of. Just because the docs say it's an early production number or special sample paint, that only matters if most of the components are still the original elements of what constitutes that unicorn. And that the sample paint is still the original sample paint!
I know that collectibility in Europe and of other Marques like Ferrari, etc share my view. The US is different, the 911 market attests to that. Patina isn't a badge of honor here!
Last edited by 77tony; 08-19-2016 at 03:45 PM.
08-19-2016, 04:17 PM
#57
Burning Brakes
There's a metallic green one for sale in CT on CL at $50k+ it may be the sister of Kermit.
I have an issue with most restorations - seeing as they generally taint originality. There are some like Minerva and Kermit that clearly are faithful to the core elements of the vehicle when purchased. But most OB restos I see - although clearly improving the saftey, reliability, aesthetic, etc of the car are just Frankensteins. Patchwork quilts of OBs laid on top of the early VIN core.
I actually put more stock in general early models (78-79) with low mileage and good condition that represent originality than vehicles with desirable VINs or rare paint jobs that have been layered on top of. Just because the docs say it's an early production number or special sample paint, that only matters if most of the components are still the original elements of what constitutes that unicorn. And that the sample paint is still the original sample paint!
I know that collectibility in Europe and of other Marques like Ferrari, etc share my view. The US is different, the 911 market attests to that. Patina isn't a badge of honor here!
I have an issue with most restorations - seeing as they generally taint originality. There are some like Minerva and Kermit that clearly are faithful to the core elements of the vehicle when purchased. But most OB restos I see - although clearly improving the saftey, reliability, aesthetic, etc of the car are just Frankensteins. Patchwork quilts of OBs laid on top of the early VIN core.
I actually put more stock in general early models (78-79) with low mileage and good condition that represent originality than vehicles with desirable VINs or rare paint jobs that have been layered on top of. Just because the docs say it's an early production number or special sample paint, that only matters if most of the components are still the original elements of what constitutes that unicorn. And that the sample paint is still the original sample paint!
I know that collectibility in Europe and of other Marques like Ferrari, etc share my view. The US is different, the 911 market attests to that. Patina isn't a badge of honor here!
Unfortunately, given the minimal numbers that the 928 was built compared to 911's and the abuses they took during years in which they were considered 'second class citizens', the 928 was rarely afforded the care that Ferraris and 911's were allowed. Thus true survivors are EXTREMELY few and far between. Add to this the extremely rare numbers of cars with 'odd' paint colors (i.e. NOT red, black, silver), with 5 speed, in first year '78 (or close behind, '79), with rare interior colors (Pascha or Tartan, some of the 'odd' cloths) or ANY PTS (Paint to Sample). Euro cars and Low serial number (Even the US 'Low' serial number cars despite not being true low Production number seem to hold here) add some value as well, and the lower the better.
So Andrew has a couple cars that are spectacular. Both Light green metallic, both 5 speed, one is a '78 US, one a '79 Euro. His '79 is a repaint, and just about the highest quality repaint I've seen (paint job alone would be 20k PLUS). Would put factory paint to shame. Pascha interior (not factory IIRC). Car is perfect, all little bits there, all systems work as intended. Worth the ask all day long.
Andrew's second car 20k some mile original US '78 5 speed - original paint, original interior, all docs, all history, likely most perfect original in the states (as Least as nice as Ed's Bluemax, and that car is Sick nice!). Possibly worth over 100k, who knows? Not for sale.
I would think that 'special' cars (color, interior, or ultra < 100 low production number) given a 'Minerva' style restoration will always be more desirable than a 'regular' silver/black automatic or black/tan 5 speed car as sold here, just because of the 'wow' factor when these cars are shown.
(But of course a car like Andrew's '78 or the 'real' Kermit that has the exclusive factory color, low miles, AND originality will trump all).
Last edited by VanD; 08-20-2016 at 01:12 AM.
08-19-2016, 05:14 PM
#58
Hey I'm not sure what YOU are getting at here? The highest US production year ('84) silver autos are where you want to be for future collectability. Better yet with a black interior. Also your gonna want to look for one with original/survivor scratch-and-dent paintwork. Good luck reproducing those imperfections after you've had the body work straightened and painted. Finally, the YouTube\Twitter\Instagram generation, which will be the future collectors, don't have the attention span to be reading all that PO documentation. The holy grail will be one that doesn't have any previous maintenance documented. Because I like you Alex, I'll let you get in on the ground floor and sell you mine for $49,999.99.
08-19-2016, 05:26 PM
#59
Burning Brakes
Hey I'm not sure what YOU are getting at here? The highest US production year ('84) silver autos are where you want to be for future collectability. Better yet with a black interior. Also your gonna want to look for one with original/survivor scratch-and-dent paintwork. Good luck reproducing those imperfections after you've had the body work straightened and painted. Finally, the YouTube\Twitter\Instagram generation, which will be the future collectors, don't have the attention span to be reading all that PO documentation. The holy grail will be one that doesn't have any previous maintenance documented. Because I like you Alex, I'll let you get in on the ground floor and sell you mine for $49,999.99.
Last edited by VanD; 08-19-2016 at 07:53 PM.
08-20-2016, 12:09 AM
#60
Instructor
Not sure what you are getting at here, but I can guess. Would you call 'Minerva' that just took second at Carmel, a 'patchwork quilt of OB laid on an early VIN core'? That car has been repainted, dash redone, etc. etc. , but as you can see from the minerva thread multiple decisions were made to preserve where possible. I personally feel it's now the 'benchmark' for OB restoration.
Unfortunately, given the minimal numbers that the 928 was built compared to 911's and the abuses they took during years in which they were considered 'second class citizens', the 928 was rarely afforded the care that Ferraris and 911's were allowed. Thus true survivors are EXTREMELY few and far between. Add to this the extremely rare numbers of cars with 'odd' paint colors (i.e. NOT red, black, silver), with 5 speed, in first year '78 (or close behind, '79), with rare interior colors (Pascha or Tartan, some of the 'odd' cloths) or ANY PTC (Paint to Sample). Euro cars and Low serial number (Even the US 'Low' serial number cars despite not being true low Production number seem to hold here) add some value as well, and the lower the better.
So Andrew has a couple cars that are spectacular. Both Light green metallic, both 5 speed, one is a '78 US, one a '79 Euro. His '79 is a repaint, and just about the highest quality repaint I've seen (paint job alone would be 20k PLUS). Would put factory paint to shame. Pascha interior (not factory IIRC). Car is perfect, all little bits there, all systems work as intended. Worth the ask all day long.
Andrew's second car 20k some mile original US '78 5 speed - original paint, original interior, all docs, all history, likely most perfect original in the states (as Least as nice as Ed's Bluemax, and that car is Sick nice!). Possibly worth over 100k, who knows? Not for sale.
I would think that 'special' cars (color, interior, or ultra < 100 low production number) given a 'Minerva' style restoration will always be more desirable than a 'regular' silver/black automatic or black/tan 5 speed car as sold here, just because of the 'wow' factor when these cars are shown.
(But of course a car like Andrew's '78 or the 'real' Kermit that has the exclusive factory color, low miles, AND originality will trump all).
Unfortunately, given the minimal numbers that the 928 was built compared to 911's and the abuses they took during years in which they were considered 'second class citizens', the 928 was rarely afforded the care that Ferraris and 911's were allowed. Thus true survivors are EXTREMELY few and far between. Add to this the extremely rare numbers of cars with 'odd' paint colors (i.e. NOT red, black, silver), with 5 speed, in first year '78 (or close behind, '79), with rare interior colors (Pascha or Tartan, some of the 'odd' cloths) or ANY PTC (Paint to Sample). Euro cars and Low serial number (Even the US 'Low' serial number cars despite not being true low Production number seem to hold here) add some value as well, and the lower the better.
So Andrew has a couple cars that are spectacular. Both Light green metallic, both 5 speed, one is a '78 US, one a '79 Euro. His '79 is a repaint, and just about the highest quality repaint I've seen (paint job alone would be 20k PLUS). Would put factory paint to shame. Pascha interior (not factory IIRC). Car is perfect, all little bits there, all systems work as intended. Worth the ask all day long.
Andrew's second car 20k some mile original US '78 5 speed - original paint, original interior, all docs, all history, likely most perfect original in the states (as Least as nice as Ed's Bluemax, and that car is Sick nice!). Possibly worth over 100k, who knows? Not for sale.
I would think that 'special' cars (color, interior, or ultra < 100 low production number) given a 'Minerva' style restoration will always be more desirable than a 'regular' silver/black automatic or black/tan 5 speed car as sold here, just because of the 'wow' factor when these cars are shown.
(But of course a car like Andrew's '78 or the 'real' Kermit that has the exclusive factory color, low miles, AND originality will trump all).
I'd rather a low mileage original as possible well kept 928 regardless of its color and transmission than a low VIN scrap find that an enthusiast has re sprayed and fawned/tinkered over and brought back up to spec.