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Gain 100HP with an intake manifold change?? - Cross post from Ferrari Chat

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Gain 100HP with an intake manifold change?? - Cross post from Ferrari Chat

 
Old 03-09-2016, 07:16 PM
  #91  
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I look at that FAST LSX intake pic again and wonder if a 3-piece setup would be easier to mold and make to fit our cars.
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Old 03-09-2016, 07:43 PM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by Mongo View Post
I look at that FAST LSX intake pic again and wonder if a 3-piece setup would be easier to mold and make to fit our cars.
complete redesign though, due to our crazy wide cylinder spacing, right?
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Old 03-09-2016, 07:51 PM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by Mongo View Post
I look at that FAST LSX intake pic again and wonder if a 3-piece setup would be easier to mold and make to fit our cars.
Price out the engineering to get something like that to fit on a 928 engine, build a few prototypes to test, price out those three molds, and then get a quote on how much it costs to make a minimum run at the injection mold shop.

Let me know how practical it is, for the tiny 928 market.....where you might sell ten of them....only if they are less than $2,000.

You guys dreaming, at home or at work, have no idea what it takes to accomplish designing, testing, and then making a new manifold.

You guys think, for a minute, that the manifold on that Aston Martin was simply sketched out and produced, before months of design work and testing was done?
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Old 03-09-2016, 07:59 PM
  #94  
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thats why we want to chop off its legs and mount it to Carls stuff!

yes, the market is tiny , but we can make something MUCH better for the 928 than the stock S4 intake. we meaning, you and others that can do this..... Already, phil did the work on his intake that gave 100more HP to mark and Joe. sure, made out of bubblegum, but that can be fixed.

i know what this stuff costs to make and turn into product molds.... very very expenstive. thats why im suggesting bolt on , frankenstein projects that use stuff that is already developed and then modified for our use.

now, your question regarding Aston martin's intake.... the answer is yes... it was just bolted on.. wanna know why? .... it came from the efforts of Ford! its near the same design. they didnt do much RandD there. much of what they have is bolt on.. fancy parts in a jaguar block, ford heads, granzano transmissino, volvo electronics, etc etc. the rest is auston martin, meaning hand made and hand painted/polished and beautified.
take a look at the Aston martin V12... it has SVO Ford pistons and rods.... looks like parts you can find at Kragens Auto Parts.

Originally Posted by GregBBRD View Post
Price out the engineering to get something like that to fit on a 928 engine, build a few prototypes to test, price out those three molds, and then get a quote on how much it costs to make a minimum run at the injection mold shop.

Let me know how practical it is, for the tiny 928 market.....where you might sell ten of them....only if they are less than $2,000.

You guys dreaming, at home or at work, have no idea what it takes to accomplish designing, testing, and then making a new manifold.

You guys think, for a minute, that the manifold on that Austin Martin was simply sketched out and produced, before months of design work and testing was done?
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Old 03-09-2016, 08:29 PM
  #95  
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Well I'll tell you guys what... pray I win Powerball or CA's Megamillions and I'll put money up to do this and even make sure it's carried not only at Dave Roberts' and Mark Andersons' shops, but even on Jegs.com and Summit Racing.
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Old 03-09-2016, 08:32 PM
  #96  
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I wish this happened. If it does count me in.
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Old 03-09-2016, 09:39 PM
  #97  
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It will not be practical to make the entire manifold out of polymer, but perhaps the plenum. When I priced out a mold for a polymer manifold similar to the Cayenne, the molds came in around $35k. There are room temperature PA66/GF30 processes that can use a much less expensive urethane mold, but the piece price is pretty high.

If anyone wants to play at home with their own design, I can have more weld-style flanges made in about two weeks. I would have to get them re-quoted, but can tell you they would be under $1,000 for the pair, and I still have fuel rails to match in stock from the first batch. Holley makes modular intake parts, which could be used to make something quickly:

https://www.holley.com/products/inta.../parts/300-218
https://www.holley.com/products/inta.../parts/300-217
https://www.holley.com/products/inta.../parts/300-220

Jenvey and Reverie also offer pre-made plenums if someone wanted to build a cross-ram style intake.

That said, just using the easy parts off the shelf wont necessarily get you better performance than the engineered stock manifold; there are critical relations between runner length and volume, internal resonance, pressure pulses.... lots goes into calculations for runner length.

I have modeled some parts for Greg's project, they are different than the weld-style currently available, and will be a proprietary part for his use and development.

The lower intake flanges that are available to the public are designed for 2" tubing exiting the head at a 22.5 degree angle. I have modeled several welded designs, and it is not difficult to get a long-runner manifold with off the shelf 3" CLR mandrel bends. the plenum design is a bit tricky to work with the factory throttle and hoses though.
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Old 03-09-2016, 10:02 PM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by GregBBRD View Post
You guys dreaming, at home or at work, have no idea what it takes to accomplish designing, testing, and then making a new manifold.
This is true. Look at the prices Hans is quoting. Sounds like what my ME coworkers talk about. That Ford manifold has probably $100K to $200K in tooling to make them. And that's the production tooling. How about all the "nice try" units? Oh, that was "soft tooling." And piles of cash for that and the engineers and testing to get there. Nice when you can spread the costs across 1,000 or 100,000 or 10,000,000 units.

There are some really smart guys working to improve these cars and creating cool stuff. No two ways about that.
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Old 03-09-2016, 10:26 PM
  #99  
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Yes this stuff is EASY...AS Long as you have no clue about what is going on........ I think my IQ dropped about 50 percent just by reading this.....Right the factory ....any factory just copies someone else's work mods it SLIGHTLY and claims it as its own.....major manufacturers leave 50-100 horsepower on the table because they can not canniblize another intake. Like who cares about horsepower Does no one else realize how stupid this entire thread really is

Now change the cams change the displacement install headers no cats. Up the rev limiter and YES the stock manifold is no longer optimal for top end horsepower....
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Old 03-09-2016, 11:44 PM
  #100  
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Originally Posted by James Bailey View Post
note how the rectangular shape twists 90 degrees from the top to the bottom wonder what the port shape and size is ?? Quite a nice piece of work there....and very short pistons for lightweight. No wonder it can spin up so well. I rather enjoyed driving it but never really punched it hard.
That manifold is a work of art....no wonder they cross sectioned it to show it off!

The rectangular cross section allows them to make the runners much larger in size and still fit together in the available space. Those things are absolutely huge in size at the entry and then gently taper down to the size of the ports (which are also huge.)

I'm guessing that this car has more than 5 gears to choose from and that they are close ratio gears, so that they can keep the engine in the higher rpm range. I'm also going to guess that they have variable valve timing over the entire rpm range, to help the port velocity and cylinder filling efficiency....otherwise this thing would be really lame on the bottom end and through the midrange.

"Let's trade some low and mid range torque for horsepower on the top end, because we have lots of gears that are really close together to compensate." We can throw in some variable cam timing to make up some of the losses, but we will never get back to what the engine would do with a smaller port and runners.

Not so good for a 928.....
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Old 03-09-2016, 11:52 PM
  #101  
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Correct variable intake timing . 7800 rom rev limiter, high compression and lots of development, coupled to a six speed manual trans..... Fun car now in Dallas with my daughter
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Old 03-10-2016, 12:05 AM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by mark kibort View Post
complete redesign though, due to our crazy wide cylinder spacing, right?
simply look at big block chevy......there has been one running around with 85-86 Porsche heads for years.. in an old 1930s hotrod.....showed up at a Sharktoberfest under it's own power......
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Old 03-10-2016, 07:42 AM
  #103  
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Guys guys....

I have an intake manifold that produces over 200 hp. I'm not the only one either. There are a few others out there. No hood clearance issues. Works great.

I know it's not really what you're talking about, but it does provide some perspective.
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Old 03-10-2016, 11:04 AM
  #104  
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Mark,

You and Mongo are full of excellent what if ideas. Reminds me of a manager that barks out commands and doesn't have the faintest idea what it takes to make it happen. Since you said you are willing to commission an intake, get your wallet out and call Greg, see if he is willing to take your money. It's easy to tell others to build something that you might buy, something else is to fork out the money to finance a product and it's development. Time to pay up or shut up. .
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Old 03-10-2016, 12:48 PM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by Imo000 View Post
Mark,

You and Mongo are full of excellent what if ideas. Reminds me of a manager that barks out commands and doesn't have the faintest idea what it takes to make it happen. Since you said you are willing to commission an intake, get your wallet out and call Greg, see if he is willing to take your money. It's easy to tell others to build something that you might buy, something else is to fork out the money to finance a product and it's development. Time to pay up or shut up. .
again, we hear you spouting off. anything ive claimed or challenged ive backed up.. this is no different. I will certainy commission greg to make one if it is in the right price ball park. I think everyone here would think that the old threshie intake at $4-5k was pricy, and I think the target is in the 3k range.
Mongo and I are here to discuss and bounce ideas... see what others have done and point to a direction that might get us an intake. we are not "barking orders" . I know what it takes to make these things. FULLY aware. Now, YOU sound like one of those little fluffy dogs that are in some rich bitch purse that just wont stop barking, and you want to snuff it out with a small pillow while she isn't looking!
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