125 Extra HP for $389.00?
10-06-2003, 11:02 AM
#1
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125 Extra HP for $389.00?
125 extra HP for $389.00??? Anyone installed a Nitrous kit on a Shark? Are they compatible with fuel injected engines? What are the engine risks when using?
http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerc...24&prmenbr=361
http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerc...24&prmenbr=361
10-06-2003, 11:22 AM
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Nitrous is generally safe, but.......
There's always a BUT isn't there?
Nitrous in small quantities, for short periods of time, generally will not harm a well maintained, strong, stock engine. That said, you have to consider what you plan on doing with the stuff. It's only for short bursts remember.
Nitrous does not burn, it simply supercools the intake air, allowing the cylinders to burn (potentially) lots more fuel than at ambient air temps.
Lots of people use a 5-8HP shot for an intercooler on their superchargers. In that condition a 10lb bottle will last several hours of track time, etc.
For larger shots, you GENERALLY (not sure about the 928) are looking at more money than the cost of the kit. Most times you are looking at replacing the injectors with higher flow models, replacing the fuel pump with higher pressure to keep up, and possibly remapping the fuel injection computer.
You will also need a better delivery mechanism than the cheapo WOT switch that comes with these introductory kits. A good progressive Nitrous controller, one that gradually applies the stuff, instead of with a single burst, can cost upwards of $300.
I put a 125HP Nitrous kit on my 95 NSX. In that example, I had to change injectors, fuel pump, remap the FI brain, add a progressive controller, and plumb in the bottle, along with a bottle heater and purge valve.
Total cost was approx $1300. Now? It's cool, I use it maybe once a year.... Mostly it just looks neat at car shows......
Did the same thing to a 2001 Chev Camaro SS. Managed to get by with the factory injectors on that one, so for a 100HP shot, my cost dropped to about $950. On the SS it was worth it, because I took the car to the dragstrip regularly.
Unless you plan on dragging the 928, I would think your money would be better spent on more traditional mods, with less result but safer, ie headers, low restriction cats, better intake, etc.
If you just want to impress your friends, get one of these
Nitrous Subwoofer
As always, YMMV. Good luck, be careful with the stuff if you decide to use it. Start with small jets, and work your way up, watching for detonation and lean fuel/air condition along the way.
Nitrous in small quantities, for short periods of time, generally will not harm a well maintained, strong, stock engine. That said, you have to consider what you plan on doing with the stuff. It's only for short bursts remember.
Nitrous does not burn, it simply supercools the intake air, allowing the cylinders to burn (potentially) lots more fuel than at ambient air temps.
Lots of people use a 5-8HP shot for an intercooler on their superchargers. In that condition a 10lb bottle will last several hours of track time, etc.
For larger shots, you GENERALLY (not sure about the 928) are looking at more money than the cost of the kit. Most times you are looking at replacing the injectors with higher flow models, replacing the fuel pump with higher pressure to keep up, and possibly remapping the fuel injection computer.
You will also need a better delivery mechanism than the cheapo WOT switch that comes with these introductory kits. A good progressive Nitrous controller, one that gradually applies the stuff, instead of with a single burst, can cost upwards of $300.
I put a 125HP Nitrous kit on my 95 NSX. In that example, I had to change injectors, fuel pump, remap the FI brain, add a progressive controller, and plumb in the bottle, along with a bottle heater and purge valve.
Total cost was approx $1300. Now? It's cool, I use it maybe once a year.... Mostly it just looks neat at car shows......
Did the same thing to a 2001 Chev Camaro SS. Managed to get by with the factory injectors on that one, so for a 100HP shot, my cost dropped to about $950. On the SS it was worth it, because I took the car to the dragstrip regularly.
Unless you plan on dragging the 928, I would think your money would be better spent on more traditional mods, with less result but safer, ie headers, low restriction cats, better intake, etc.
If you just want to impress your friends, get one of these
Nitrous Subwoofer
As always, YMMV. Good luck, be careful with the stuff if you decide to use it. Start with small jets, and work your way up, watching for detonation and lean fuel/air condition along the way.
10-06-2003, 12:19 PM
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Actually, Nitrous Oxide dissociates readily and provides a supplimental source of oxygen, in support of combustion. It is not simply a refrigerant for the normal intake air. This additional oxygen is what makes nitrous systems so potentially damaging to engines. If your supplimental fuel metering is inadequate, you get all the lean-burn problems that you'd normally expect, but multiplied. That's how a nitrous system can eat through pistons in a matter of seconds if the supplimental fuel flow is compromised.......... like as in a fuel soleniod that sticks.
Don't ask!!
Don't ask!!
10-06-2003, 01:26 PM
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Nitrous 928
Nitrous 928 page 2
The biggest danger from using nitrous is not having enough fuel. If your fuel pump or fuel lines are too small or restrictive, there will be serious problems. Another fairly common problem is not having the solenoid activation wires connected to a power source that provides enough current to fully and quickly open the solenoids.
There are "dry" and "wet" systems available. In a dry system only nitrous is fed into the engine, and the extra fuel required comes from larger injectors, remapping the fuel injection computer, or things like that that are done to modify the stock fuel delivery to the engine. In a wet system the additional fuel required is supplied by the nitrous installation itself, and none of the above modifications to the fuel injectors or computer are required. The system on the 928 in the web pages above is a wet system.
It does work and can make a lot of power, but getting the bottle filled all the time is a pain. You will definitely have times where you want to use the nitrous and the bottle's empty.
Nitrous 928 page 2
The biggest danger from using nitrous is not having enough fuel. If your fuel pump or fuel lines are too small or restrictive, there will be serious problems. Another fairly common problem is not having the solenoid activation wires connected to a power source that provides enough current to fully and quickly open the solenoids.
There are "dry" and "wet" systems available. In a dry system only nitrous is fed into the engine, and the extra fuel required comes from larger injectors, remapping the fuel injection computer, or things like that that are done to modify the stock fuel delivery to the engine. In a wet system the additional fuel required is supplied by the nitrous installation itself, and none of the above modifications to the fuel injectors or computer are required. The system on the 928 in the web pages above is a wet system.
It does work and can make a lot of power, but getting the bottle filled all the time is a pain. You will definitely have times where you want to use the nitrous and the bottle's empty.
10-06-2003, 02:45 PM
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Also, the wet system for the 928 is not $400. More like $800.
The one you listed is for a 4 barrel carb system, which is a lot simpler than one for a fuel injection system...
The one you listed is for a 4 barrel carb system, which is a lot simpler than one for a fuel injection system...
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10-06-2003, 07:42 PM
#10
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Ive used it very very successfully, and there are no issues for a 50hp shot on a 928. I used it over an two year period on street and on the track. No worries. you cant hurt our motors with a 50hp shot. my 84 part euro engine was 243 at the wheels and this went up to close to 300 with the 50 shot. then, on my 285 part euro 5 liter I used it for a while. No issues at all. Nitrous Express knows the jet configuations for a 52psi fuel pressure and the fuel air mixture was right on the money at 12.5:1 when engaged.
The biggest problem with NOs is too much power for the engine. as we know, our stock engine can handle 100hp sucessfully. (stroker, or other intake type mods)
Going lean is not that big of an issue. if you are right at 14.7 for extended periods of time, some damage could occure, first appearing as pinging. However, even if only NOS was shot, without matching fuel, it would make the engine just run lean, very lean. now more power, just lean and that actually REDUCES CHT (cylinder head temps) and EGTs (exhaust gas temps) airplane engines have been running lean of stoik for 50 years sucessfully, and no burned up engines!!
a 10lb bottle is good for 10 laps on a race track of 1:40ish time and using it all on the straights. The ONLY safe way to engage is a "3rd " pedal switch " as I like to call it. a small micro switch /buttonswitch on the floor board to the left of the clutch. this way, if your foot is off the clutch you can engage. remove that foot to engage the clutch, and the NOS has to come off , right??
Happy boosting
MK
The biggest problem with NOs is too much power for the engine. as we know, our stock engine can handle 100hp sucessfully. (stroker, or other intake type mods)
Going lean is not that big of an issue. if you are right at 14.7 for extended periods of time, some damage could occure, first appearing as pinging. However, even if only NOS was shot, without matching fuel, it would make the engine just run lean, very lean. now more power, just lean and that actually REDUCES CHT (cylinder head temps) and EGTs (exhaust gas temps) airplane engines have been running lean of stoik for 50 years sucessfully, and no burned up engines!!
a 10lb bottle is good for 10 laps on a race track of 1:40ish time and using it all on the straights. The ONLY safe way to engage is a "3rd " pedal switch " as I like to call it. a small micro switch /buttonswitch on the floor board to the left of the clutch. this way, if your foot is off the clutch you can engage. remove that foot to engage the clutch, and the NOS has to come off , right??
Happy boosting
MK
10-07-2003, 12:04 AM
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Mark, your reference to aircraft operation is just a bit misleading. If you fly, you will be aware that a pilot may adjust mixture to EGT readings somewhat lean of peak for economy, at lower power settings. This just-lean-of-stoich setting is set extremely accurately with reference to EGT if it is done. You will also know that, as soon as the need for more power is anticipated the FIRST item on the checklist is "Mixture Rich"....
Also, another bit of red herring; combustion temp is NOT the issue in terms of engine damage. Overlean conditions do not lead to melt-down....... they lead to detonation, a totally separate, and arguably more destructive issue.
Also, another bit of red herring; combustion temp is NOT the issue in terms of engine damage. Overlean conditions do not lead to melt-down....... they lead to detonation, a totally separate, and arguably more destructive issue.
10-07-2003, 04:18 PM
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Hey, no argument from me here. You understand, but my my point was that most folks are worried about lean running engines. what they really are worried about is detonation, or running at Stoik. now, that said, you can run even at WOT at 17 :1 or 18:1 and not have much power or heat, and probably run slightly leaner until it stops missing. Point, as you say, its detonation! not leanness. If you are familuar with power curves of auto or aircraft engines, you see as you go lean, the power drops off dramtically, and so does the EGT and CHTs. a 50 shot of NOS could toss you into the stoik range but more than likely, it would just make the car go way lean . Even so, the cooling temp of NOS , may off set a propensity to ping if it was leaned by normal tuning methods.
The Overall point is, Ive used NOS very very sucessfully over two race seaons and street use, and tore the engine down and saw the results, if any . there were no visible evidence that it was even used, and why would there be. there is no difference in using a 50 shot vs making a 50hp modification. mass flow is mass flow. actually, due to the before mentioned "cusioning effects" of NOS useage, this is probably a safter method of increasing hp than most. however, the only drawback is having to use a button and refilling bottles at 40 bucks a bottle, however, cheaper than race gas for much more power!!
so, your point of overlean conditions not leading to melt down is also misleading. over lean conditions dont lead to detonation, close to stoich(ie 14.7:1 Mixture) leads to detonation. you can run most engines at full throttle , lean of stoich and run cool as a cucumber. however, you wont be making much HP, but it will run fairly well and not detonate.
MK
QUOTE]Originally posted by BrianG
Mark, your reference to aircraft operation is just a bit misleading. If you fly, you will be aware that a pilot may adjust mixture to EGT readings somewhat lean of peak for economy, at lower power settings. This just-lean-of-stoich setting is set extremely accurately with reference to EGT if it is done. You will also know that, as soon as the need for more power is anticipated the FIRST item on the checklist is "Mixture Rich"....
Also, another bit of red herring; combustion temp is NOT the issue in terms of engine damage. Overlean conditions do not lead to melt-down....... they lead to detonation, a totally separate, and arguably more destructive issue.
[/QUOTE]
The Overall point is, Ive used NOS very very sucessfully over two race seaons and street use, and tore the engine down and saw the results, if any . there were no visible evidence that it was even used, and why would there be. there is no difference in using a 50 shot vs making a 50hp modification. mass flow is mass flow. actually, due to the before mentioned "cusioning effects" of NOS useage, this is probably a safter method of increasing hp than most. however, the only drawback is having to use a button and refilling bottles at 40 bucks a bottle, however, cheaper than race gas for much more power!!
so, your point of overlean conditions not leading to melt down is also misleading. over lean conditions dont lead to detonation, close to stoich(ie 14.7:1 Mixture) leads to detonation. you can run most engines at full throttle , lean of stoich and run cool as a cucumber. however, you wont be making much HP, but it will run fairly well and not detonate.
MK
QUOTE]Originally posted by BrianG
Mark, your reference to aircraft operation is just a bit misleading. If you fly, you will be aware that a pilot may adjust mixture to EGT readings somewhat lean of peak for economy, at lower power settings. This just-lean-of-stoich setting is set extremely accurately with reference to EGT if it is done. You will also know that, as soon as the need for more power is anticipated the FIRST item on the checklist is "Mixture Rich"....
Also, another bit of red herring; combustion temp is NOT the issue in terms of engine damage. Overlean conditions do not lead to melt-down....... they lead to detonation, a totally separate, and arguably more destructive issue.
[/QUOTE]
