928 Track data during high G turns (pics of gauges mid qualifying)
10-31-2015, 05:10 PM
#31
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I don't make up what happens at Willow, nor do I have to explain it. The "trail" of blown 928 engines at Willow Springs speaks volumes for everyone....except you.
No 928 engine driven faster than about a 1:32.00 with a stock oiling system, has ever survived Willow Springs...
Zero.
Try and be intelligent enough to understand that this is not "my rules". It's not something I have made up! I'm not responsible for it!
It's pure and simple.....it's f^cking reality.
h!
No 928 engine driven faster than about a 1:32.00 with a stock oiling system, has ever survived Willow Springs...
Zero.
Try and be intelligent enough to understand that this is not "my rules". It's not something I have made up! I'm not responsible for it!
It's pure and simple.....it's f^cking reality.
h!
Here is my old 1984 928S with the engine I built, going to Willow springs running 2 days, 4 sessions each day of 1:35s and 1:36s . sure, its not 1:32 but its with a car that had 200lbs of my weight lifting set bolted into the passenger seat to meet POC spec classs rules . This was my first time there and my first season of racing with POC back in 2000. i was on corded used hoosier R3s
(willlow is hard on tires! )
the key thing here is that the car more than survived, spent a good deal of time going around turn 2 at 90mph in 3rd with the RPM in the 6k range for many laps . This is quite abit faster that i suppose Mark and Rob were running around Willow at when his suspect engine , with windage tray and mobil 1 oil blew up.
Ill see you at the track with my car and a 1:28 lap time an no blown motor.
Last edited by mark kibort; 10-31-2015 at 05:28 PM.
10-31-2015, 05:51 PM
#32
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Not Mobil 1. Carry on carryin' on.
10-31-2015, 07:05 PM
#33
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11-01-2015, 07:11 PM
#34
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Greg.. Just found my video... I was there a second time as well, a full race weekend at Willow Springs in 2000, and ran 1:33.xx in both of the two races. I guess 1:32 is the magic number then?
Also, here is a comparison of Mark Anderson with Me at Laguna seca.. since you had such a hard time accepting me running 1:36.1 vs his best back in the day when his car had 420rwhp and a 1:40.1 (not that it mattered.. the car ran what it ran regardless of the day, tires, driver etc) I thought I would post a comparison of more closely related drives. here is a video comparison of Mark Anderson in 2000 during his best qual time of the weekend and my race lap in a PCA race a couple years later. (so the track is the same) And, this is with the Holbert car and 320rwhp. Marks car in that year was 420rwhp on the DOTs and at near the same weight.
Regardless of driver talent, this shows the older 928 with no mods handling the g forces and surviving. by the way, this was on of its 1000s of laps on the track, going up to 120race days before the change of the engine, which now has 82 race days on it.
Enjoy
Also, here is a comparison of Mark Anderson with Me at Laguna seca.. since you had such a hard time accepting me running 1:36.1 vs his best back in the day when his car had 420rwhp and a 1:40.1 (not that it mattered.. the car ran what it ran regardless of the day, tires, driver etc) I thought I would post a comparison of more closely related drives. here is a video comparison of Mark Anderson in 2000 during his best qual time of the weekend and my race lap in a PCA race a couple years later. (so the track is the same) And, this is with the Holbert car and 320rwhp. Marks car in that year was 420rwhp on the DOTs and at near the same weight.
Regardless of driver talent, this shows the older 928 with no mods handling the g forces and surviving. by the way, this was on of its 1000s of laps on the track, going up to 120race days before the change of the engine, which now has 82 race days on it.
Enjoy
11-03-2015, 06:58 PM
#35
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Has anyone actually measured the ambient air temp inside the engine block of a running 928 engine? Both coolant and oil draw heat out of the engine and we run both fluids through coolers to help reduce buildup of heat in those fluids.
Given the actual temperatures seen by the physical components that contain combustion, I suspect the ambient air temperature inside the block of a running engine is probably much hotter than either the coolant or oil temperatures. The bottoms of the pistons and the cylinder walls are probably radiating a tremendous amount of heat into the airspace inside the block. Additionally, that airspace is largely static, without the kind of high volume airflow that would be necessary to use air as a cooling force inside the block.
Interestingly, some two stroke engine designs actually do route fresh air from the intake through the engine block on on it's way to the combustion chamber. It works in those applications, but would reduce the efficiency of a four stroke engine.
Just a thought.
Oh - here's a link to get you started on the "oil steam" idea...
http://www.drivenracingoil.com/news/...tion-problems/
Given the actual temperatures seen by the physical components that contain combustion, I suspect the ambient air temperature inside the block of a running engine is probably much hotter than either the coolant or oil temperatures. The bottoms of the pistons and the cylinder walls are probably radiating a tremendous amount of heat into the airspace inside the block. Additionally, that airspace is largely static, without the kind of high volume airflow that would be necessary to use air as a cooling force inside the block.
Interestingly, some two stroke engine designs actually do route fresh air from the intake through the engine block on on it's way to the combustion chamber. It works in those applications, but would reduce the efficiency of a four stroke engine.
Just a thought.
Oh - here's a link to get you started on the "oil steam" idea...
http://www.drivenracingoil.com/news/...tion-problems/
Its possible that the radiated heat from the engine and blow by are hotter than the oil.. but again, those who dont understand, have to mock. I dont know for sure, but it sounds like a possibility. interestingly, it would show that the dipstick might not be uncovered under hi g loading, thus dispelling the theory that the oil pick up gets uncovered.
11-03-2015, 08:21 PM
#36
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Mark-
If I send you an oil pan drain plug tapped for a 1/8 x 27 NPT oil temp sender, will you install it and actually use it so we don't have to read any more hypotheses/FUD RE: your sometimes-uncovered dipstick mounted temp sender?
If I send you an oil pan drain plug tapped for a 1/8 x 27 NPT oil temp sender, will you install it and actually use it so we don't have to read any more hypotheses/FUD RE: your sometimes-uncovered dipstick mounted temp sender?
11-03-2015, 11:32 PM
#37
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you think it will get uncovered around turn2 at T-hill?
11-06-2015, 12:08 PM
#38
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good points! i was trying to simulate the temps of the static air in the oil pan area, and only got the oil to operating temp. i found no loose connections in the wiring, and the engine oil was near 250F during the race.
Its possible that the radiated heat from the engine and blow by are hotter than the oil.. but again, those who dont understand, have to mock. I dont know for sure, but it sounds like a possibility. interestingly, it would show that the dipstick might not be uncovered under hi g loading, thus dispelling the theory that the oil pick up gets uncovered.
Its possible that the radiated heat from the engine and blow by are hotter than the oil.. but again, those who dont understand, have to mock. I dont know for sure, but it sounds like a possibility. interestingly, it would show that the dipstick might not be uncovered under hi g loading, thus dispelling the theory that the oil pick up gets uncovered.
Google up Porsche tilting dynamic dynomometer and you will no longer think of the oil being on the bottom of the sump.or static air trapped on the top.You will wonder how any wet sump engine manages to survive when subjected to that effective movement.
11-06-2015, 04:02 PM
#39
Static air in the crankcase ???? The bottoms of the pistons are moving as much air as the tops. The crank and rod big ends are churning up a veritable oil storm. Then add in the movement of those g forces......
Google up Porsche tilting dynamic dynomometer and you will no longer think of the oil being on the bottom of the sump.or static air trapped on the top.You will wonder how any wet sump engine manages to survive when subjected to that effective movement.
Google up Porsche tilting dynamic dynomometer and you will no longer think of the oil being on the bottom of the sump.or static air trapped on the top.You will wonder how any wet sump engine manages to survive when subjected to that effective movement.
I could not find any data online regarding crankcase air temps, but it makes perfect sense that the air in the crankcase would be significantly hotter than the oil. Blow by introduces hot gas from the combustion process and heat is transferred to the air from the pistons, cylinder walls and other components inside the crankcase. The only way to cool this air is by transferring the heat to the oil.
11-06-2015, 05:21 PM
#41
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Rob,
If you don't have one at the ready, I've got two sitting around that I can't use because they are for S4 pans and I'm running an OB. (Had to make my own).
Happy to send one down to Mark.
-Adam
If you don't have one at the ready, I've got two sitting around that I can't use because they are for S4 pans and I'm running an OB. (Had to make my own).
Happy to send one down to Mark.
-Adam
11-06-2015, 06:32 PM
#42
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The air inside the crankcase is not static, but it is also not circulating through a cooling loop the same way as the oil or coolant. The air in the crankcase is moving constantly, but mostly just back and forth from cylinders on the down stroke to ones on the up stroke. There is some circulation due to the the PCV system, but this would serve to heat the air in the crankcase not cool it. This is because the air drawn out by the PCV system is replaced mostly by blow by around the rings from the combustion process.
I could not find any data online regarding crankcase air temps, but it makes perfect sense that the air in the crankcase would be significantly hotter than the oil. Blow by introduces hot gas from the combustion process and heat is transferred to the air from the pistons, cylinder walls and other components inside the crankcase. The only way to cool this air is by transferring the heat to the oil.
I could not find any data online regarding crankcase air temps, but it makes perfect sense that the air in the crankcase would be significantly hotter than the oil. Blow by introduces hot gas from the combustion process and heat is transferred to the air from the pistons, cylinder walls and other components inside the crankcase. The only way to cool this air is by transferring the heat to the oil.
11-06-2015, 06:38 PM
#43
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Static air in the crankcase ???? The bottoms of the pistons are moving as much air as the tops. The crank and rod big ends are churning up a veritable oil storm. Then add in the movement of those g forces......
Google up Porsche tilting dynamic dynomometer and you will no longer think of the oil being on the bottom of the sump.or static air trapped on the top.You will wonder how any wet sump engine manages to survive when subjected to that effective movement.
Google up Porsche tilting dynamic dynomometer and you will no longer think of the oil being on the bottom of the sump.or static air trapped on the top.You will wonder how any wet sump engine manages to survive when subjected to that effective movement.
yes, there is some air moving around due to the 4 " movement of the pistons, but the air is not going anywhere. for every piston going down, there is another one going up.
and no , there is no oil storm.. the oil is being tossed around for sure. the tops of the oil pan for which is 2 " above the oil level has some crank couner weights flying by, but there is oil being bounced around the hot components which splashes around and lubricates a lot of moving parts. go take a pan of liquid and tilt it at 45 degree angles in all directions to simulate 1 g loading. It is dramatic, but dont think its a problem for oiling in our cars set up. Given by the fact that my car has worked for so long at 1.4 g levels and during turns that are over 5-6 seconds long. what the oil does is interesting. with the top of the container being the bottom of the block, I'm sure the oil moves quickly and rolls over and refills the pan. Don't know for sure.. maybe we need a go pro
Mk
Last edited by mark kibort; 11-06-2015 at 07:34 PM.
11-06-2015, 11:09 PM
#44
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Mark please go find the video of the Porsche V-8 and the late model 911 on the tilting dyno. And they were simulating street cars on street tires.........
watch them a few times before concluding where the oil is relative to the moving parts.
And yes there is a huge amount of the oil flying around inside the engine, to think otherwise is absurd.
watch them a few times before concluding where the oil is relative to the moving parts.
And yes there is a huge amount of the oil flying around inside the engine, to think otherwise is absurd.
11-07-2015, 01:04 AM
#45