Does the Air Pump serve any function after cats are deleted?
05-15-2015, 10:42 PM
#31
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Ohhh, speculum, reminds me Bigs hasn't posted in this forum in ages.
The deal with the diesel truck tuner was they were selling chips that would show the particulate filter as working when it was removed. Thus, they could blow black smoke easily.
As for the pumps, there are only a few types made, and they are fitted on all kinds of cars. I know the one on my 83 Ferrari is the same model that comes on the Chevette, Pontiac Sunfire, Fiat X1/9, and a dozen other GM cars. I have a few pumps lying around which is the big deal. The lines, and tubes, and fittings can all be made up, but the pump is the bit that you need to keep.
We're straying far from the 928 topic, but as a boy growing up in SoCal in the 60s the air was - really ****ty with smog. Of course, I was a gear head, and railed about all the restrictions on car exhaust. I had a dune buggy, motorcycles, Studebaker hot rod(I know, haha), and by the mid 70s smog stuff was pretty tight. But - ya know, the air quality improved dramatically. So - I have to say it was worth it.
With the tech we have today, there isn't really any reason to rob a car of much HP to reduce emissions greatly. The 928 is a good example. I think the pump diff is 4HP from the Euro to the US cars over the life of the fleet. 4HP can be made up by simply changing from flag to bullet mirrors, or wiring the front air dam open all the time. 4HP can be made up by changing the tire pressure from 28 to 36PSI.
So, in summary, take the pump off, keep it along with the box of all your other 928 gadgetry that you aren't using and if the feds do go fascist(what am I saying, already there), you can put it back as it was. I know there are people who take the guts out of the pump and just leave the housing in place for looks. Meh - if you have to have it on there, might as well pump some air. The coolest installation I saw was the 1972-7 Lamborghini V12. Since the test at the time did an idle test, and a running test at 3200RPM, Lamborghini came up with a clutch and sensor on the pump that would drive it up to 3500RPM, then de-clutch it from 3600 to redline. Pretty cool.
The deal with the diesel truck tuner was they were selling chips that would show the particulate filter as working when it was removed. Thus, they could blow black smoke easily.
As for the pumps, there are only a few types made, and they are fitted on all kinds of cars. I know the one on my 83 Ferrari is the same model that comes on the Chevette, Pontiac Sunfire, Fiat X1/9, and a dozen other GM cars. I have a few pumps lying around which is the big deal. The lines, and tubes, and fittings can all be made up, but the pump is the bit that you need to keep.
We're straying far from the 928 topic, but as a boy growing up in SoCal in the 60s the air was - really ****ty with smog. Of course, I was a gear head, and railed about all the restrictions on car exhaust. I had a dune buggy, motorcycles, Studebaker hot rod(I know, haha), and by the mid 70s smog stuff was pretty tight. But - ya know, the air quality improved dramatically. So - I have to say it was worth it.
With the tech we have today, there isn't really any reason to rob a car of much HP to reduce emissions greatly. The 928 is a good example. I think the pump diff is 4HP from the Euro to the US cars over the life of the fleet. 4HP can be made up by simply changing from flag to bullet mirrors, or wiring the front air dam open all the time. 4HP can be made up by changing the tire pressure from 28 to 36PSI.
So, in summary, take the pump off, keep it along with the box of all your other 928 gadgetry that you aren't using and if the feds do go fascist(what am I saying, already there), you can put it back as it was. I know there are people who take the guts out of the pump and just leave the housing in place for looks. Meh - if you have to have it on there, might as well pump some air. The coolest installation I saw was the 1972-7 Lamborghini V12. Since the test at the time did an idle test, and a running test at 3200RPM, Lamborghini came up with a clutch and sensor on the pump that would drive it up to 3500RPM, then de-clutch it from 3600 to redline. Pretty cool.
05-16-2015, 12:05 AM
#33
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Doesn't take much imagination to go to the next step....
__________________
greg brown
714 879 9072
GregBBRD@aol.com
Semi-retired, as of Feb 1, 2023.
The days of free technical advice are over.
Free consultations will no longer be available.
Will still be in the shop, isolated and exclusively working on project cars, developmental work and products, engines and transmissions.
Have fun with your 928's people!
greg brown
714 879 9072
GregBBRD@aol.com
Semi-retired, as of Feb 1, 2023.
The days of free technical advice are over.
Free consultations will no longer be available.
Will still be in the shop, isolated and exclusively working on project cars, developmental work and products, engines and transmissions.
Have fun with your 928's people!
05-16-2015, 01:01 AM
#34
Administrator - "Tyson"
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Imagine a country that is broke and needs to print trucks loads of money to balance the budget. Imagine that country has an "Environmental Protection Agency" that already has laws in place to regulate and fine people for not following certain emission laws. Now, imagine that this country's "EPA" needs additional funding to keep their doors open, pay their people, and pay the people that have retired from this agency.
Doesn't take much imagination to go to the next step....
Doesn't take much imagination to go to the next step....
That is why Wisconsin ditched enforcing pre ODB-II cars, they simply couldn't afford to do it anymore. Other states are not as smart and keep losing money on their effort to regulate the minuscule number of older cars on the road.
Not to mention, cranking up enforcement has never resulted in increased revenue for the feds, just look at the drug war. Yea they brag about the millions seized, it's no secret it costs far more than it brings in.
So they start enforcing laws already on the books which you stated earlier would cause an immediate flushing of old cars.....this would benefit the EPA how? If people started to ditch their older out of compliance cars for new ones, that means they are not paying fines to the EPA.......and all that money spent getting ready for the militant enforcement squad would be for nothing.
Let's take California, already the strictest emission laws that are heavily enforced. Such changes that you speak of would bring in zero money from one of the largest states in the Union. That takes a HUGE chunk out of the estimated bottom line of this project.
I also feel you are grossly overestimating the number of "older" cars that are out of compliance. What would happen to the EPA if they spend billions (which is what it would cost) to make these changes only to find out less than 10% of the target cars are faulty? Whoops.....another federal program flushed money down the crapper, just like "Cash for Clunkers" - which proved to be a disaster of epic financial proportions.
Then you have the complication of State vs Federal enforcement. You think the feds are going to send in their own people? Might want to read up on the constitution.........the feds are backing away from the marijuana battle because it's lost = states are winning.
Plenty of other big issues where the states are pushing back and telling the feds to F-off. How would this be any different? States are realizing they have bigger fish to fry than the BS running around the feds cook up on a regular basis.
I could be wrong, I probably am....but this is how I see it.
I can guarantee you one thing though, pre 1975 cars will never be targeted, ever. Not in a million lifetimes. This means your entire theory is going after cars made between 1976-1996, 20 years.
Go do some research with the DMV and tell me how many cars made over that 20 year span are still on the road.
Then calculate the amount of money the government would have to spend to enforce these laws for cars made in that time frame.....and at the same time give me a rough estimate of how many of those are actually out of compliance.
Crunch the numbers, the total number of cars "fixed" by such a plan is so insignificant, it's a statistical error on the grand scale.
After giving this much thought....my air pump is going in the basement.
Meanwhile my lawn mower, weed whacker, and ATV will plume out far more emissions this summer than my air-pump deleted 928. On that note.....these changes you speak of are already happening and they are going after small engines, recreational vehicles, and maybe even marine equipment. When the dust settles from these changes (which will take years to over a decade) maybe then.....just then....they will turn their attention to a 20 year span of vintage automobiles.
Here is my vision to springboard off yours:
The feds will do something to "clean up" the older car "problem" and in my opinion, it will be a more advanced "Cash for Clunkers" program. The feds never learn, they don't care (or wont remember) the last one being a financial disaster......but on "paper" they will be "saving the planet!!!!"
They get their headlines, they get to prance out in front of the world showing how "we" are doing our part to clean up the planet.....it's all BS, nothing really changes.....but the political results are there.
Meanwhile that cargo ship bringing in the latest SKF bearings from China pulling into Long Beach just spewed more greenhouse harming gasses into the sky than all of my cars combined over my lifetime.
What if I'm wrong? I'll walk down to my basement, pull that box marked "Air pump" off the shelf, put it back on my 928....life goes on, I'm out nothing and still get to enjoy my 928.
Meanwhile my 79 will be made a trailer queen and only be used at the track......which ironically is what I purchased it for in the first place.
What about my supercharged 81 and replica Cobra? I'll worry about that when the times comes. I'm not going to plan my life today around what the government might to tomorrow.......
05-16-2015, 03:42 AM
#35
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That's a nice bedtime story, I've actually talked to state officials about this (one is a regular guest at my house). Bottom line is, you need money to enforce such a change and it's not there. Even if there was, there isn't the manpower. Law enforcement of every branch (including the EPA and DNR) are stretched so thin, they would need to more than triple in size to make your dream a reality.
That is why Wisconsin ditched enforcing pre ODB-II cars, they simply couldn't afford to do it anymore. Other states are not as smart and keep losing money on their effort to regulate the minuscule number of older cars on the road.
Not to mention, cranking up enforcement has never resulted in increased revenue for the feds, just look at the drug war. Yea they brag about the millions seized, it's no secret it costs far more than it brings in.
So they start enforcing laws already on the books which you stated earlier would cause an immediate flushing of old cars.....this would benefit the EPA how? If people started to ditch their older out of compliance cars for new ones, that means they are not paying fines to the EPA.......and all that money spent getting ready for the militant enforcement squad would be for nothing.
Let's take California, already the strictest emission laws that are heavily enforced. Such changes that you speak of would bring in zero money from one of the largest states in the Union. That takes a HUGE chunk out of the estimated bottom line of this project.
I also feel you are grossly overestimating the number of "older" cars that are out of compliance. What would happen to the EPA if they spend billions (which is what it would cost) to make these changes only to find out less than 10% of the target cars are faulty? Whoops.....another federal program flushed money down the crapper, just like "Cash for Clunkers" - which proved to be a disaster of epic financial proportions.
Then you have the complication of State vs Federal enforcement. You think the feds are going to send in their own people? Might want to read up on the constitution.........the feds are backing away from the marijuana battle because it's lost = states are winning.
Plenty of other big issues where the states are pushing back and telling the feds to F-off. How would this be any different? States are realizing they have bigger fish to fry than the BS running around the feds cook up on a regular basis.
I could be wrong, I probably am....but this is how I see it.
I can guarantee you one thing though, pre 1975 cars will never be targeted, ever. Not in a million lifetimes. This means your entire theory is going after cars made between 1976-1996, 20 years.
Go do some research with the DMV and tell me how many cars made over that 20 year span are still on the road.
Then calculate the amount of money the government would have to spend to enforce these laws for cars made in that time frame.....and at the same time give me a rough estimate of how many of those are actually out of compliance.
Crunch the numbers, the total number of cars "fixed" by such a plan is so insignificant, it's a statistical error on the grand scale.
After giving this much thought....my air pump is going in the basement.
Meanwhile my lawn mower, weed whacker, and ATV will plume out far more emissions this summer than my air-pump deleted 928. On that note.....these changes you speak of are already happening and they are going after small engines, recreational vehicles, and maybe even marine equipment. When the dust settles from these changes (which will take years to over a decade) maybe then.....just then....they will turn their attention to a 20 year span of vintage automobiles.
Here is my vision to springboard off yours:
The feds will do something to "clean up" the older car "problem" and in my opinion, it will be a more advanced "Cash for Clunkers" program. The feds never learn, they don't care (or wont remember) the last one being a financial disaster......but on "paper" they will be "saving the planet!!!!"
They get their headlines, they get to prance out in front of the world showing how "we" are doing our part to clean up the planet.....it's all BS, nothing really changes.....but the political results are there.
Meanwhile that cargo ship bringing in the latest SKF bearings from China pulling into Long Beach just spewed more greenhouse harming gasses into the sky than all of my cars combined over my lifetime.
What if I'm wrong? I'll walk down to my basement, pull that box marked "Air pump" off the shelf, put it back on my 928....life goes on, I'm out nothing and still get to enjoy my 928.
Meanwhile my 79 will be made a trailer queen and only be used at the track......which ironically is what I purchased it for in the first place.
What about my supercharged 81 and replica Cobra? I'll worry about that when the times comes. I'm not going to plan my life today around what the government might to tomorrow.......
That is why Wisconsin ditched enforcing pre ODB-II cars, they simply couldn't afford to do it anymore. Other states are not as smart and keep losing money on their effort to regulate the minuscule number of older cars on the road.
Not to mention, cranking up enforcement has never resulted in increased revenue for the feds, just look at the drug war. Yea they brag about the millions seized, it's no secret it costs far more than it brings in.
So they start enforcing laws already on the books which you stated earlier would cause an immediate flushing of old cars.....this would benefit the EPA how? If people started to ditch their older out of compliance cars for new ones, that means they are not paying fines to the EPA.......and all that money spent getting ready for the militant enforcement squad would be for nothing.
Let's take California, already the strictest emission laws that are heavily enforced. Such changes that you speak of would bring in zero money from one of the largest states in the Union. That takes a HUGE chunk out of the estimated bottom line of this project.
I also feel you are grossly overestimating the number of "older" cars that are out of compliance. What would happen to the EPA if they spend billions (which is what it would cost) to make these changes only to find out less than 10% of the target cars are faulty? Whoops.....another federal program flushed money down the crapper, just like "Cash for Clunkers" - which proved to be a disaster of epic financial proportions.
Then you have the complication of State vs Federal enforcement. You think the feds are going to send in their own people? Might want to read up on the constitution.........the feds are backing away from the marijuana battle because it's lost = states are winning.
Plenty of other big issues where the states are pushing back and telling the feds to F-off. How would this be any different? States are realizing they have bigger fish to fry than the BS running around the feds cook up on a regular basis.
I could be wrong, I probably am....but this is how I see it.
I can guarantee you one thing though, pre 1975 cars will never be targeted, ever. Not in a million lifetimes. This means your entire theory is going after cars made between 1976-1996, 20 years.
Go do some research with the DMV and tell me how many cars made over that 20 year span are still on the road.
Then calculate the amount of money the government would have to spend to enforce these laws for cars made in that time frame.....and at the same time give me a rough estimate of how many of those are actually out of compliance.
Crunch the numbers, the total number of cars "fixed" by such a plan is so insignificant, it's a statistical error on the grand scale.
After giving this much thought....my air pump is going in the basement.
Meanwhile my lawn mower, weed whacker, and ATV will plume out far more emissions this summer than my air-pump deleted 928. On that note.....these changes you speak of are already happening and they are going after small engines, recreational vehicles, and maybe even marine equipment. When the dust settles from these changes (which will take years to over a decade) maybe then.....just then....they will turn their attention to a 20 year span of vintage automobiles.
Here is my vision to springboard off yours:
The feds will do something to "clean up" the older car "problem" and in my opinion, it will be a more advanced "Cash for Clunkers" program. The feds never learn, they don't care (or wont remember) the last one being a financial disaster......but on "paper" they will be "saving the planet!!!!"
They get their headlines, they get to prance out in front of the world showing how "we" are doing our part to clean up the planet.....it's all BS, nothing really changes.....but the political results are there.
Meanwhile that cargo ship bringing in the latest SKF bearings from China pulling into Long Beach just spewed more greenhouse harming gasses into the sky than all of my cars combined over my lifetime.
What if I'm wrong? I'll walk down to my basement, pull that box marked "Air pump" off the shelf, put it back on my 928....life goes on, I'm out nothing and still get to enjoy my 928.
Meanwhile my 79 will be made a trailer queen and only be used at the track......which ironically is what I purchased it for in the first place.
What about my supercharged 81 and replica Cobra? I'll worry about that when the times comes. I'm not going to plan my life today around what the government might to tomorrow.......
I'm not sure how old you are....but the Feds already did this once. Sometime in the 80's. They simply bought up all the car magazines and went after anyone that advertised anything to do with exhaust that removed a cat.
Many lives were turned upside down...and some even went to jail.
I believe not only can they do that again, but will.
Time will tell.
05-16-2015, 11:31 AM
#36
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The 928 may never become serious concours entrants, but if they do, the air pump will be (very slightly) valuable, but the plumbing, wiring, etc. will be solid gold. Just ask anyone who has made a '60s muscle car into a 98-point entry. The air tubing is probably the most expensive piece on the car.