Just to open this can of worms further:

The other choice is to call Ed and have him build you a Guardian Pump.

 

I did not say they had stopped manufacturing them. The last time I talked to Herr Heiko Heiken MD of Laso he told me that they were going to have to raise their prices significantly due to low volumes of 928 pumps. Since then the major wholesalers dropped Laso (based on higher prices is my educated guess) and started selling the GEBA. That was about a year ago. One source continues to sell the earlier Laso at a higher price and availability is good. I have 30 in stock and access to another 50. Because volumes are higher for the earlier pump (certainly through 928sRus) I have no immediate concern about availability. However I do not have control over the source or Laso. In the long term you may be right about the earlier Laso pump.

Actually not correct. Some time ago I researched this question with the Chief Engineer at Doncasters one of the largest casting houses in the World. He stated that was the case a long time ago but now with the addition of additives to the metal used for sand casting that they are as strong if not stronger than traditional die casting. However the casting is of little significance in the failure of 928 WP. I have never seen one with a failed casting.
The casting was an issue when rebuilds were being supplied as with repeated replacement of the seal cartridge the fit of the aperture was compromised. As we are talking about new pumps the casting is the least of our problems.

I made it very clear that this was my opinion and others would differ - those that use Porsche new water pumps are a very small minority of 928 owners as already shown with sales figures. I am glad you are able to afford that amount of money for a water pump and more power to you.

Yes no problem with most Porsche dealers. All parts resellers sell at "list" price or slightly above. I try to keep below list on volume Porsche parts where I can. Now there are three or four Porsche dealers (that I know of) that sell way below list. One of them is Sunset and I know you advertise them when ever you can and probably buy your parts from them. Resellers like 928sRus, 928 Int., 928 Specialists, Vertex and Pelican to name a few buy from Porsche or the wholesalers (Porsche only parts) at list less 20%. Selling below list reduces ones margin which is pretty slim as is. Those dealers who sell low do so at a price of cost plus 10% to 15% which is significantly lower than what we pay Porsche. So to answer your question any reseller who matched those special low cost dealers would be selling at a loss.
You may ask why the resellers do not buy from those Porsche dealers. We do sometimes on volume parts but any gain is eaten away with shipping and time.

 

"For those of us would not fit a PKT then our choice is a Geba or the factory pump, correct?"

Beck Arnley also makes one with a metal impeller

 

Roger -- inbound PM.

 

This is my opinion on the Guardian Pump. Ed is an exceptional engineer and I have respect for what he does. I could never understand the reason for the Guardian pump as failures due to WP's seizing are few and far between. Personally I have never seen or heard of this happening - as Greg would say maybe I am just lucky.
Initially there were a number of failures of the Guardian pump, enough for me to stop thinking of selling them. The failures were in no way catastrophic just the rubber clutch failing prematurely. However this did mean stripping the front of the engine to replace the water pump. More annoying than anything else.
What is really good about Ed's pump is that he hand makes them using a stock casting. He fits a new, and I am sure a much better quality, seal cartridge. Customers that use his pump are very happy.
So maybe we need to make a pump that meets all our criteria.

 

"Beck Arnley" I guess I have never really heard of them. Are they a reputable builder. I see there pump sells for circa $130. Checked them out and they are a wholesaler of types and distribute other manufactures parts.

 

They have mixed reviews in the Mercedes world (makes sense if they buy other parts and resell them)

Amazon.com sells them and has a good return policy if anyone wants to check it out,

 

Roger I have heard of few seized pumps....Jeff my son in law had It happen so saw the result.
Recall an S-4 in San Francisco which overheated quickly on the bay bridge opted to drive off NOT to stop. Called tow truck which when it arrived sometime later the driver suggested they restart the car......and of course the back side of the timing belt was now vulcanized to what had been a red hot water pump pulley ....so it broke the belt and scrambled the valves.
Jeff however was driving a 16 valve but he too waited for it to cool down added water then cranked it.......popped the belt BUT no valve damage.
Recent thread about water pump issues OP mentions smelling burning rubber parked car ....then they restarted it to put it on the trailer !!!! that one made me cringe as I read it but they got away with it So yes pumps will seize if the bearing fails and locks up.
And yes it can and will break the belt....sometimes

 

My thoughts regarding the Guardian pump is that if you have a PKT, it eliminates the major worry over not having the belt tension warning system, namely that it could be triggered by a seized water pump. Maybe it doesn't happen that often, but it does seem to be one of the causes of broken timing belts that are mentioned frequently.

 

Roger:

I'm not sure further discussion serves any purpose. I think everyone has made their point.

I will say this, not about water pumps specifically, but just a general thought.

Our customer base is quite different....and we are going to have different standards and different approaches.

People seek me out to repair their 928's. I'm frequently fixing a problem that the customer has already paid two, three, sometimes four times to repair....and still has the same unresolved problem.

You sell parts.....sometimes to people that are trying to repair something as cheap as possible.

People come to me because of my reputation. They know I'm going to fix the problem and make sure they never had to think about that problem ever again....because that's what I do.

I'm going to use pieces I know will work and are the best I can find.

People ship me stuff from all over the country, all over the world, to repair. Is it because I'm cheaper? Not hardly. Is it because there's a mechanic, local to them, that can fix it? Not hardly.

Do I want to experiment with a tensioner that doesn't have a warning light system, which even the designer has no idea of how tight the belt actually is, which is impossible to accurately set the cam timing when the engine is assembled, and has already had a couple of confirmed failures? Not hardly.

Do I want to experiment with a water pump with a metal impeller, when I had to spend a couple hundred hours designing, machining, and making a tool to repair blocks that were ruined by a metal impeller? Not hardly.

Am I going to install rubber fuel hose in places where Porsche knew it was inadequate and would be prone to failure and the rubber hose manufacturers know it is improper and tell people not to do this? Not hardly.

I took out an early transmission, last week, that the owner spent $2500 to have repaired. It grinds so badly, one can hardly drive the car. Is that because the guy that just got done repairing that transmission knew what he was doing? Not hardly.

I took out a brand new clutch with all brand new pieces (including the intermediate plate), last week, that chattered so badly that you could hardly use reverse gear. The prior mechanic had it in and out several times and finally "welded" the stops on the intermediate plate in an attempt to fix it (which, obviously did not fix it.) It took us 5 minutes to see the problem and fix it. Does it chatter now? Not hardly.

I called World Pac last week. An early Laso pump costs me $509. A brand new early water pump, from Porsche, costs me $589. I'm going to install a Laso water pump, when I have to remove every single one I see to identify what version it is? Not hardly.

Yes, it is true that I've not had, nor heard of, any failures of the "latest version" Laso pump. Does that make me want to support a company which made two versions, before this one, that damaged more blocks than anyone could ever imagine? Well, you know can guess the answer to this one....

 

Thank you for the compliment. But i have to point out that the "failures" were not a fault of design or proof they don't work. It proves they do. The problem with some of the pumps chewing up the rubber was because the perticular pumps that were in question were brand new Laso pumps which had the bushing upgrade in the impeller and they were all of the same manufacturing date. The amount of torque to spin the impeller was greater on those pumps than were on all the prototype pumps and Laso's of different dates that I had been using during developement and testing. I figured this out after NC Growlers pump sheared at the same time as Gregs stroker build. I put a new coupler in Gregs pump that he returned to me and it ran for at least 2 more years that I know of on another car. There was some speculation that the coupler couldn't handle the torque but i Have one of these on my twinscrew car and Don Hanson stroker race car and they are still holding up.
I bought a special tool to go along with my jig to determine the point at which a timing belt would slip on a waterpump pulley if the bearing began to seize so I could prevent the timing belt from burning off. That number is what I designed around plus a differential. The Updated Laso for some reason surpassed that number at times and after I realized this I check and moniter the torque reading as I assemble each one and then put them on a test stand and run each water pump for 2 hours at 6000 rpm re-check the torque or drag number,if you will, and ship them.
There hasn't been 1 complaint since and thats almost 4-5 years ago. Even if you put a solid coupler in place for the rubber one, the pump still solves beaing migration issues,pulley falling off issues, and you can over tighten the hell out of the belt if you want, Not that I know why you would want to. And I no longer drill through the shaft and pin the impeller, I just use Porsche suppied plastic ones.
Oh , and one of the pumps was sent back with an impeller rusted tight to the housing, and he was mad at me because the rubber coupler sheared.

 

Thanks for chiming in Ed.

I have Ed's pump on my car and I feel that my car is very safe with it.
I liked the design since the beginning and will keep it for many belt change.

As far as I'm concern, it worth every $ invested.
And I'm just at my second belt change with it.

BTW, the pump (Laso) as a metal impeller (one of the last Roger sold) and I'm well with it.

 

Roger, my numbers are almost noise in the data set, but since you asked...

I don't only fit new Porsche pumps. I'm pretty sure you've shipped me several of the updated Lasos in the last year or three.

Since new Porsche pumps went from expensive, to crazy expensive, to damn-near stupid expensive I have fitted only three new Porsche pumps. All on GTSs (and one of those was mine.) Years ago, when they were only 'expensive' the ratio was about 50% IIRC.

I have not yet had a single failure of a new water pump of any of the three types I have installed. Rebuilds sourced from late 2007 are another story. I would estimate a 50% failure rate on those. I've done three-or-four 'free' water pump jobs not counting one of my own. However, prior to 2007 about 50% of the pumps were rebuilds, also with no-reported-to-me or-discovered-by-me failures.

I've installed 5 or 6 of Ed's Guardian pumps with no reported issues.

(Furthermore, I plan to use one of Ed's pumps on my twin-screwed '91 next winter as it will be due for a belt service.)

I don't know, off the top of my head how many Lasos I've installed, but I do know I've only installed the ones with the extra bush.

I would estimate my total number of water pumps to be in the 30-40 range. So, probably about half (or less) of what Greg does every year.

 

Let me add one more thing: I've had several 928s brought to me with what was supposedly a 'new' Porsche pump at the last service but when I removed the pump it was obviously not 'new' because it had a metal impeller and based upon the dates of the last service would have had a plastic impeller if it had been an actual new pump. Given that, I've always assumed that some of the 'new'-at-the-time plastic impeller pumps I've removed must also have been rebuilds with the sticker removed.

Sometimes owners are convinced they received a new pump but their records indicate a price that could only have been a rebuilt. Sometimes there are no records only recollections and sometimes there are simply lies on the previous records.

 

I had a few last year that the customer was charged $900.00+ for a pump (only the pump) and it was clearly a crap rebuild that anyone can get for a bit over $100.00. One of those Beck/Arnley crap jobs that they resell. B/A does not make a water pump.