6 speed conversion in progress
05-12-2020, 11:26 AM
#196
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
The following users liked this post:
Dundertaker (05-12-2020)
05-12-2020, 12:49 PM
#197
Instructor
Given that the C5 Corvette owners report on their forums that the little rattle at idle with the clutch in is a "thing" that some C5's do, I'd look over there and see if they (the Corvette owners) have found a solution for it.
From what I'm reading, it does not seem to be harmful, just annoying at the occasional traffic light. If the sound bugs you, you can shift to neutral at the traffic light and let the clutch out, or chase it down. It seems a fair number of the C5 owners don't chase it and like Pete report no other problems.
From what I'm reading, it does not seem to be harmful, just annoying at the occasional traffic light. If the sound bugs you, you can shift to neutral at the traffic light and let the clutch out, or chase it down. It seems a fair number of the C5 owners don't chase it and like Pete report no other problems.
05-12-2020, 01:02 PM
#198
Given that the C5 Corvette owners report on their forums that the little rattle at idle with the clutch in is a "thing" that some C5's do, I'd look over there and see if they (the Corvette owners) have found a solution for it.
From what I'm reading, it does not seem to be harmful, just annoying at the occasional traffic light. If the sound bugs you, you can shift to neutral at the traffic light and let the clutch out, or chase it down. It seems a fair number of the C5 owners don't chase it and like Pete report no other problems.
From what I'm reading, it does not seem to be harmful, just annoying at the occasional traffic light. If the sound bugs you, you can shift to neutral at the traffic light and let the clutch out, or chase it down. It seems a fair number of the C5 owners don't chase it and like Pete report no other problems.
This attitude alone would dissuade me from buying anything from them. Knowing what I know now about the failure rate of these kits I wish I'd never purchased it. I'm too far down the rabbit hole now to stop, may as well fix all the issues and move on. More pictures later.
05-12-2020, 01:25 PM
#199
Developer
Carl, actually, that's when it makes the noise - neutral with the clutch pedal released. When the clutch pedal is depressed, and the friction discs are pulled away so the torque tube is no longer being spun is when it's quieter, so I think the noise is definitely torque tube related when there is no load on it.
I’ve driven every single 6-speed kit that I’ve installed here, and I’d say 6 out of 10 make that whirr noise in neutral, clutch out. Not all of them, but a good percentage of them. I looked it up too, and read a lot of “that’s just the way it is on the C5” replies. I would expect a 928 owner to say “it sounds different” than what they are used to because the 928 TTube is heavy steel, and the driveshaft is mounted in rubber pillow blocks. Very quiet. The C5 driveshaft is mounted in an aluminum tube with no pillow blocks at all (the rubber isolators, if used, isolate the drive shaft but not the bearings from the case). It only makes sense to me that we would hear more bearing whirr at rest from a design like that.
I suppose the difference may simply be that the 928 was intended as a luxury/touring car, and the 'Vette a Sports Car - and the level of what the buyer of such a car will expect and enjoy is different.
05-12-2020, 01:37 PM
#200
Instructor
Thank you Pete, I misspoke. You are right.
I’ve driven every single 6-speed kit that I’ve installed here, and I’d say 6 out of 10 make that whirr noise in neutral, clutch out. Not all of them, but a good percentage of them. I looked it up too, and read a lot of “that’s just the way it is on the C5” replies. I would expect a 928 owner to say “it sounds different” than what they are used to because the 928 TTube is heavy steel, and the driveshaft is mounted in rubber pillow blocks. Very quiet. The C5 driveshaft is mounted in an aluminum tube with no pillow blocks at all (the rubber isolators, if used, isolate the drive shaft but not the bearings from the case). It only makes sense to me that we would hear more bearing whirr at rest from a design like that.
I suppose the difference may simply be that the 928 was intended as a luxury/touring car, and the 'Vette a Sports Car - and the level of what the buyer of such a car will expect and enjoy is different.
I’ve driven every single 6-speed kit that I’ve installed here, and I’d say 6 out of 10 make that whirr noise in neutral, clutch out. Not all of them, but a good percentage of them. I looked it up too, and read a lot of “that’s just the way it is on the C5” replies. I would expect a 928 owner to say “it sounds different” than what they are used to because the 928 TTube is heavy steel, and the driveshaft is mounted in rubber pillow blocks. Very quiet. The C5 driveshaft is mounted in an aluminum tube with no pillow blocks at all (the rubber isolators, if used, isolate the drive shaft but not the bearings from the case). It only makes sense to me that we would hear more bearing whirr at rest from a design like that.
I suppose the difference may simply be that the 928 was intended as a luxury/touring car, and the 'Vette a Sports Car - and the level of what the buyer of such a car will expect and enjoy is different.
05-12-2020, 02:56 PM
#202
Developer
Blagave, that looks close, and others have asked about it too. I have a post around here (somewhere) and just spent a few minutes trying to find it where I answered that question with a picture and everything. Maybe someone else can find it. The picture showed the driveshaft angles through the CV joints and explained why we designed it that close. The greater you move the transaxle away from the cross member at that spot, the greater the angle you are forcing your CV joint to work through, the greater your drive train losses, and the shorter your CV joint service life.
I located it where I did to keep your CV joint to a lesser angle for longer life and lower drive-train losses. I know it's close, but the transaxle does not move much, and under load, it actually moves away from that, not closer.
I located it where I did to keep your CV joint to a lesser angle for longer life and lower drive-train losses. I know it's close, but the transaxle does not move much, and under load, it actually moves away from that, not closer.
05-12-2020, 04:12 PM
#203
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
Basic Site Sponsor
I've read this entire thread. Sterling went from "Fantastic Kit, Great Parts, Great Instructions" to "WTF" midway through the thread. I'm hoping that his "issues" are being taken to heart and being resolved, if not in his kit, but in any future kits.
From a business standpoint, if I was the maker of this kit and this thread existed, I'd be absolutely horrified and doing anything/everything possible to resolve these problems and improve my kit/make people happy. Whatever amount of profit is involved is moot....it would be very difficult/almost impossible to ever "recover" from this thread. Fix the problems. Send pick-up tags for the torque tubes. Do whatever needs to be done to make these people happy! Make the "end" of this thread positive!
From a potential consumer's point of view, I'm concerned about the future quality of the pieces. The maker of the kit seems to be more interested in making excuses and dodging the issues that figuring out the problems and solving them....I'm not sure how this is going to "cure" the problems with future kits.The most recent reply about "Corvette's are sports car and should make noise and 928's are luxury cars" and were quiet was a serious reply? But in the same paragraph, essentially the same breath, some Corvette torque tubes are noisy and some are quiet? Seriously?
Come on, respect your clients.....they are not that stupid.... be serious, step up, and fix the problem. (The $100 store credit was a very loud FU, heard by everyone! You should have apologized for your shop's oversight, instantly prepped another torque tube (with all the problems fixed) and shipped it, with a call tag for the old one. Remember...there is no amount of profit that makes this thread "go away" and Sterling went from a very positive customer to your worst nightmare over some some things you could have fixed, really easily.
The driveshaft problems do not seem terminal....it's not like the tube is breaking or having some other catastrophic failure....seems to only be a quality control issue, which should be easily solved. Clean the pieces, before assembly, until you would be willing to lick them. Drill the holes for the shifter before cleaning....and make a jig to ensure the shifter is properly located.....not a visual, "That should work." Obviously use bearings rated for the proper rpm use....that's a silly mistake. Machine a simple front "slinger" out of aluminum to protect the front bearing (super easy, right? 10 minutes on a lathe?) Make sure that whoever assembles the torque tube has a proper bearing insertion tool....not a hammer and a punch. Kill whoever performed this work (just joking....sort of.) Go back and double check anything he did. (If this piece is this way, what does imply about the rest of his workmanship?)
If I'm reading things correctly, that should "cure" the torque tube problems.
Now, about the rear mount....I do not understand the issue, or the problem. I'll need someone to explain the problem a bit more. My initial reaction is that every Corvette transmission should be cast with-in a gnat's *** of being exactly the same....and thus every rear mount should be exactly the same...built and drilled exactly the same, on a jig. (And what is with those welds on the mount? Looks like Stevie Wonder welds, for you. What are the consequences of those welds failing? Seems like a very essential part. Get a professional to TIG those parts together.) Why is Sterling having to buy additional parts to drill? Why isn't this already done? (The hardware problem is simple....put a small headed 12 point bolt in there, with a hardened washer. (Bel Ray has hardened washers....and perhaps even the bolts. If they don't have the bolts, ARP will!)
Come on people....let's get this stuff squared away, get this thread turned around, make these people happy, and call it a "weaning" problem....so I can buy a quality product.
From a business standpoint, if I was the maker of this kit and this thread existed, I'd be absolutely horrified and doing anything/everything possible to resolve these problems and improve my kit/make people happy. Whatever amount of profit is involved is moot....it would be very difficult/almost impossible to ever "recover" from this thread. Fix the problems. Send pick-up tags for the torque tubes. Do whatever needs to be done to make these people happy! Make the "end" of this thread positive!
From a potential consumer's point of view, I'm concerned about the future quality of the pieces. The maker of the kit seems to be more interested in making excuses and dodging the issues that figuring out the problems and solving them....I'm not sure how this is going to "cure" the problems with future kits.The most recent reply about "Corvette's are sports car and should make noise and 928's are luxury cars" and were quiet was a serious reply? But in the same paragraph, essentially the same breath, some Corvette torque tubes are noisy and some are quiet? Seriously?
Come on, respect your clients.....they are not that stupid.... be serious, step up, and fix the problem. (The $100 store credit was a very loud FU, heard by everyone! You should have apologized for your shop's oversight, instantly prepped another torque tube (with all the problems fixed) and shipped it, with a call tag for the old one. Remember...there is no amount of profit that makes this thread "go away" and Sterling went from a very positive customer to your worst nightmare over some some things you could have fixed, really easily.
The driveshaft problems do not seem terminal....it's not like the tube is breaking or having some other catastrophic failure....seems to only be a quality control issue, which should be easily solved. Clean the pieces, before assembly, until you would be willing to lick them. Drill the holes for the shifter before cleaning....and make a jig to ensure the shifter is properly located.....not a visual, "That should work." Obviously use bearings rated for the proper rpm use....that's a silly mistake. Machine a simple front "slinger" out of aluminum to protect the front bearing (super easy, right? 10 minutes on a lathe?) Make sure that whoever assembles the torque tube has a proper bearing insertion tool....not a hammer and a punch. Kill whoever performed this work (just joking....sort of.) Go back and double check anything he did. (If this piece is this way, what does imply about the rest of his workmanship?)
If I'm reading things correctly, that should "cure" the torque tube problems.
Now, about the rear mount....I do not understand the issue, or the problem. I'll need someone to explain the problem a bit more. My initial reaction is that every Corvette transmission should be cast with-in a gnat's *** of being exactly the same....and thus every rear mount should be exactly the same...built and drilled exactly the same, on a jig. (And what is with those welds on the mount? Looks like Stevie Wonder welds, for you. What are the consequences of those welds failing? Seems like a very essential part. Get a professional to TIG those parts together.) Why is Sterling having to buy additional parts to drill? Why isn't this already done? (The hardware problem is simple....put a small headed 12 point bolt in there, with a hardened washer. (Bel Ray has hardened washers....and perhaps even the bolts. If they don't have the bolts, ARP will!)
Come on people....let's get this stuff squared away, get this thread turned around, make these people happy, and call it a "weaning" problem....so I can buy a quality product.
__________________
greg brown
714 879 9072
GregBBRD@aol.com
Semi-retired, as of Feb 1, 2023.
The days of free technical advice are over.
Free consultations will no longer be available.
Will still be in the shop, isolated and exclusively working on project cars, developmental work and products, engines and transmissions.
Have fun with your 928's people!
greg brown
714 879 9072
GregBBRD@aol.com
Semi-retired, as of Feb 1, 2023.
The days of free technical advice are over.
Free consultations will no longer be available.
Will still be in the shop, isolated and exclusively working on project cars, developmental work and products, engines and transmissions.
Have fun with your 928's people!
The following users liked this post:
Shark2626 (05-12-2020)
05-12-2020, 04:14 PM
#204
Drifting
Anyway, whenever I shut the engine off with the trans in neutral and clutch out, it would make a rattling noise, like marbles in a can. What we all learned on the forum was that because of the design of the driveline, this was considered normal/expected behavior.
And if I remember correctly, some guys pushed the clutch in when they shut the engine off so it wouldn't make the noise. I did not.
05-12-2020, 04:23 PM
#205
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
Basic Site Sponsor
Blagave, that looks close, and others have asked about it too. I have a post around here (somewhere) and just spent a few minutes trying to find it where I answered that question with a picture and everything. Maybe someone else can find it. The picture showed the driveshaft angles through the CV joints and explained why we designed it that close. The greater you move the transaxle away from the cross member at that spot, the greater the angle you are forcing your CV joint to work through, the greater your drive train losses, and the shorter your CV joint service life.
I located it where I did to keep your CV joint to a lesser angle for longer life and lower drive-train losses. I know it's close, but the transaxle does not move much, and under load, it actually moves away from that, not closer.
I located it where I did to keep your CV joint to a lesser angle for longer life and lower drive-train losses. I know it's close, but the transaxle does not move much, and under load, it actually moves away from that, not closer.
These people are not that stupid!
Just say, "Thanks for the tip. Be sure to let me know if you see any signs of there being an issue. I will review and correct, if required."
Make the next ones slightly different, if it is even a possible issue.
Simple.
Fixed.
No BS excuse required.
05-12-2020, 04:42 PM
#206
I've read this entire thread. Sterling went from "Fantastic Kit, Great Parts, Great Instructions" to "WTF" midway through the thread. I'm hoping that his "issues" are being taken to heart and being resolved, if not in his kit, but in any future kits.
From a business standpoint, if I was the maker of this kit and this thread existed, I'd be absolutely horrified and doing anything/everything possible to resolve these problems and improve my kit/make people happy. Whatever amount of profit is involved is moot....it would be very difficult/almost impossible to ever "recover" from this thread. Fix the problems. Send pick-up tags for the torque tubes. Do whatever needs to be done to make these people happy! Make the "end" of this thread positive!
From a potential consumer's point of view, I'm concerned about the future quality of the pieces. The maker of the kit seems to be more interested in making excuses and dodging the issues that figuring out the problems and solving them....I'm not sure how this is going to "cure" the problems with future kits.The most recent reply about "Corvette's are sports car and should make noise and 928's are luxury cars" and were quiet was a serious reply? But in the same paragraph, essentially the same breath, some Corvette torque tubes are noisy and some are quiet? Seriously?
Come on, respect your clients.....they are not that stupid.... be serious, step up, and fix the problem. (The $100 store credit was a very loud FU, heard by everyone! You should have apologized for your shop's oversight, instantly prepped another torque tube (with all the problems fixed) and shipped it, with a call tag for the old one. Remember...there is no amount of profit that makes this thread "go away" and Sterling went from a very positive customer to your worst nightmare over some some things you could have fixed, really easily.
The driveshaft problems do not seem terminal....it's not like the tube is breaking or having some other catastrophic failure....seems to only be a quality control issue, which should be easily solved. Clean the pieces, before assembly, until you would be willing to lick them. Drill the holes for the shifter before cleaning....and make a jig to ensure the shifter is properly located.....not a visual, "That should work." Obviously use bearings rated for the proper rpm use....that's a silly mistake. Machine a simple front "slinger" out of aluminum to protect the front bearing (super easy, right? 10 minutes on a lathe?) Make sure that whoever assembles the torque tube has a proper bearing insertion tool....not a hammer and a punch. Kill whoever performed this work (just joking....sort of.) Go back and double check anything he did. (If this piece is this way, what does imply about the rest of his workmanship?)
If I'm reading things correctly, that should "cure" the torque tube problems.
Now, about the rear mount....I do not understand the issue, or the problem. I'll need someone to explain the problem a bit more. My initial reaction is that every Corvette transmission should be cast with-in a gnat's *** of being exactly the same....and thus every rear mount should be exactly the same...built and drilled exactly the same, on a jig. (And what is with those welds on the mount? Looks like Stevie Wonder welds, for you. What are the consequences of those welds failing? Seems like a very essential part. Get a professional to TIG those parts together.) Why is Sterling having to buy additional parts to drill? Why isn't this already done? (The hardware problem is simple....put a small headed 12 point bolt in there, with a hardened washer. (Bel Ray has hardened washers....and perhaps even the bolts. If they don't have the bolts, ARP will!)
Come on people....let's get this stuff squared away, get this thread turned around, make these people happy, and call it a "weaning" problem....so I can buy a quality product.
From a business standpoint, if I was the maker of this kit and this thread existed, I'd be absolutely horrified and doing anything/everything possible to resolve these problems and improve my kit/make people happy. Whatever amount of profit is involved is moot....it would be very difficult/almost impossible to ever "recover" from this thread. Fix the problems. Send pick-up tags for the torque tubes. Do whatever needs to be done to make these people happy! Make the "end" of this thread positive!
From a potential consumer's point of view, I'm concerned about the future quality of the pieces. The maker of the kit seems to be more interested in making excuses and dodging the issues that figuring out the problems and solving them....I'm not sure how this is going to "cure" the problems with future kits.The most recent reply about "Corvette's are sports car and should make noise and 928's are luxury cars" and were quiet was a serious reply? But in the same paragraph, essentially the same breath, some Corvette torque tubes are noisy and some are quiet? Seriously?
Come on, respect your clients.....they are not that stupid.... be serious, step up, and fix the problem. (The $100 store credit was a very loud FU, heard by everyone! You should have apologized for your shop's oversight, instantly prepped another torque tube (with all the problems fixed) and shipped it, with a call tag for the old one. Remember...there is no amount of profit that makes this thread "go away" and Sterling went from a very positive customer to your worst nightmare over some some things you could have fixed, really easily.
The driveshaft problems do not seem terminal....it's not like the tube is breaking or having some other catastrophic failure....seems to only be a quality control issue, which should be easily solved. Clean the pieces, before assembly, until you would be willing to lick them. Drill the holes for the shifter before cleaning....and make a jig to ensure the shifter is properly located.....not a visual, "That should work." Obviously use bearings rated for the proper rpm use....that's a silly mistake. Machine a simple front "slinger" out of aluminum to protect the front bearing (super easy, right? 10 minutes on a lathe?) Make sure that whoever assembles the torque tube has a proper bearing insertion tool....not a hammer and a punch. Kill whoever performed this work (just joking....sort of.) Go back and double check anything he did. (If this piece is this way, what does imply about the rest of his workmanship?)
If I'm reading things correctly, that should "cure" the torque tube problems.
Now, about the rear mount....I do not understand the issue, or the problem. I'll need someone to explain the problem a bit more. My initial reaction is that every Corvette transmission should be cast with-in a gnat's *** of being exactly the same....and thus every rear mount should be exactly the same...built and drilled exactly the same, on a jig. (And what is with those welds on the mount? Looks like Stevie Wonder welds, for you. What are the consequences of those welds failing? Seems like a very essential part. Get a professional to TIG those parts together.) Why is Sterling having to buy additional parts to drill? Why isn't this already done? (The hardware problem is simple....put a small headed 12 point bolt in there, with a hardened washer. (Bel Ray has hardened washers....and perhaps even the bolts. If they don't have the bolts, ARP will!)
Come on people....let's get this stuff squared away, get this thread turned around, make these people happy, and call it a "weaning" problem....so I can buy a quality product.
Its pretty simple. A reputable vendor would do what you outlined. Send out the proper parts let the customer install and issue call tag for the rest and take their feedback seriously. There is a huge difference between a real business and a hobbyist that sells parts and creates a "business" as a tax strategy and takes peoples money no matter how the chips fall. I would never send back what I have until I received the new ones, because the vendor in this case admitted that 6 out of 10 had issues. I can't trust that based how how I have been treated as a customer. I know of 5 customers and all 5 have issues. The vendor is admitting a 60% failure rate on a public forum, What I can verify is 100% failure rate without a 3rd parting intervening. A real business would not have charged me $40 shipping for $80 of brackets (4 flat pieces of aluminium with holes drilled in them) and told me that I screwed them up. I paid it and went on my merry way to try and make them work.
I tried to be polite as long as possible, but when I have people I don't know are contacting me asking about the "kit" (and I use that term loosely) because they have had a failure, it is my responsibility to post my experience as a customer and installer. This should never be listed or sold as a "kit" it should be sold as project parts. I thought I was getting into an "advanced kit". The vendor splashes all over their website about customer service and you get anything but that They are a Rennlist Sponsor to boot. I will figure out what I have to do, to make what I have work. It's the devil I do know. The center and main part of this "kit" isn't right, but I'd rather move forward with shops that know what they are doing, and can TIG weld and will do a good job.
Last edited by Bigfoot928; 05-13-2020 at 12:25 AM.
05-12-2020, 04:59 PM
#207
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
Basic Site Sponsor
Because I know absolutely nothing about anything Corvette, I just now entered "Noise in Z06 torque tube" into my browser.
Here's the very first thing that came up:
https://www.z06vette.com/threads/imp...-in-z06.21153/
Doesn't seem like there should be very much mystery....
Here's the very first thing that came up:
https://www.z06vette.com/threads/imp...-in-z06.21153/
Doesn't seem like there should be very much mystery....
05-13-2020, 09:13 PM
#208
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Monterey Peninsula, CA
Posts: 2,374
Likes: 0
Received 16 Likes
on
12 Posts
Yikes 😬
Didn't realize that this thread went this far off the reservation.
Sorry to hear about your dilemma Sterling
hope you're doing better and making progress regardless.
Didn't realize that this thread went this far off the reservation.
Sorry to hear about your dilemma Sterling
hope you're doing better and making progress regardless.
05-13-2020, 10:42 PM
#209
Still no contact from Carl, other than the token $100 store credit that I'd never use.
I'm making good progress. have the trans and torque tube back in the car, and working on the GB clutch now. Still have to level out the drivers side brackets, but that should be fairly easy now that I've redone the mounting plates. Got the trans harness pulled into the spare tire area. Emergency brake mounts are all worked out, and I have plenty of room for my dual 3" exhaust now. It's still going to be tight because the T56 is so much wider than the stock trans. Hopefully the nasty surprises are behind me. Hopefully.
05-14-2020, 12:19 AM
#210
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Monterey Peninsula, CA
Posts: 2,374
Likes: 0
Received 16 Likes
on
12 Posts
Originally Posted by 928sg
Sometimes things go sideways no matter how much you try to keep them on track. I'm still out a lot of time and some additional money for the bearings and the tools to rebuild the torque tube.
Still no contact from Carl, other than the token $100 store credit that I'd never use.
I'm making good progress. have the trans and torque tube back in the car, and working on the GB clutch now. Still have to level out the drivers side brackets, but that should be fairly easy now that I've redone the mounting plates. Got the trans harness pulled into the spare tire area. Emergency brake mounts are all worked out, and I have plenty of room for my dual 3" exhaust now. It's still going to be tight because the T56 is so much wider than the stock trans. Hopefully the nasty surprises are behind me. Hopefully.
Still no contact from Carl, other than the token $100 store credit that I'd never use.
I'm making good progress. have the trans and torque tube back in the car, and working on the GB clutch now. Still have to level out the drivers side brackets, but that should be fairly easy now that I've redone the mounting plates. Got the trans harness pulled into the spare tire area. Emergency brake mounts are all worked out, and I have plenty of room for my dual 3" exhaust now. It's still going to be tight because the T56 is so much wider than the stock trans. Hopefully the nasty surprises are behind me. Hopefully.
As far as Carl goes, I've given up on him since being one of his first customers and buying a set of Konis and hypercoils as a kit from him.
It was an amateur attempt at service then and based on the interaction on RL, nothing could change my mind about it.
Anyway, bye gones are such, and I'm looking forward to seeing you get this thing done.
I'm still looking at putting the Variocam in something one day
The following users liked this post:
Dundertaker (05-14-2020)