Ever heard of a catastrophic failure of the standard tensioner?
11-12-2014, 03:57 PM
#61
Former Sponsor
Not throwing mud. Not responding to Ken's attacks.
If Ken spent 1/10 the time he spent attacking me actually inventing, he'd have a belt tensioning light that made his thing partially viable.
11-12-2014, 04:15 PM
#62
Rennlist Member
On page 105 the V6 interference engine in the Acura is a belt driven and the non-interference 4-banger has a chain. That's for 2011-2013 model year.
Doing a quick search for all engines listed with a timing belt, every Acrua / Honda, Audi, Chevy Aveo and even the Daewoo 2.2L are all interference.
The non-interfearnce belt engines were the 2.4 from Chrysler the 1.6 Ford and Geo Metro 3-cylinder.
That's as far as I got.
Doing a quick search for all engines listed with a timing belt, every Acrua / Honda, Audi, Chevy Aveo and even the Daewoo 2.2L are all interference.
The non-interfearnce belt engines were the 2.4 from Chrysler the 1.6 Ford and Geo Metro 3-cylinder.
That's as far as I got.
11-12-2014, 04:54 PM
#63
Electron Wrangler
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You suppose every one of those engines uses the same exact tensioner element or is that element engineered for the individual load and leverage of each engine?
I wonder how many of those engines mount that tensioner on a crack prone adaptor made from a chunk of cheap mild steel?
I wonder how many of those engines mount that tensioner on a crack prone adaptor made from a chunk of cheap mild steel?
Retrofitting across to a different vehicle for sure creates a new scenario and that speaks to the quality of an aftermarket solution. However I'd expect the belt tension & adjustment range requirement to be similar for similar length belts of the same construction.
Tens of millions of miles on the stock stuff....never cracks, never breaks.
Yes, if an idiot adjusts the belt improperly, there may be premature gear wear. Yes, if an idiot doesn't replace wear items when the belt is serviced, there may be increased wear. Yes, if an idiot doesn't spend $5.00 and replace the pin on the idler arm that is in single shear (on the early cars) and tightens that pin with an impact, it could break.
However, the same things are going to apply to Ken's thing. It's got lever arms in single shear. It's got bushings and pieces to wear out. Get 150,000 miles on it and it's going to need all kinds of repair....if it doesn't crack and fall off the front of the block before that. (Keep in mind that Ken's thing is made from mild steel and is bolted to an aluminum block with completely different expansion rates. Your alternator bracket made from steel? How about the power steering bracket? A/C bracket? Air pump bracket?)
I'll keep the ultra reliable belt warning light system, thank you very much. I've worked on these things long enough to know exactly what that light is telling me. That light goes off and you know you have a problem....how it lights and when is the important thing. If a customer calls me with a tensioner light that just lit, I know exactly what questions to ask! I know if I need to schedule in a belt inspection and tightening, or if that customer needs to call a tow truck. If some idiot can't figure it out and the engine blows up....that's not the tensioner's fault. That's the idiot's fault.
Of the thousands (literally thousands) of 928s that I've worked on, I've had one belt failure that wasn't caused by a bad water pump or some idiot leaving something loose.
One belt failure!!!!!
Use the stock pieces. When the belt is due for replacement, replace the other pieces that are wear items, also. "Rebuild" the tensioner (replace the boot, adjusting screw, internal o-ring, and clamp so that it doesn't leak oil. Use a Factory or Gates timing belt that isn't a giant rubber band. Adjust the belt properly. Re-adjust the new belt at 2,000 miles and every 15,000 miles after that to the proper specification.
Forget the rest of the bull****. Forget the horror stories....they are designed to transfer your hard earned money to someone else.
Do it right, the first time, and forget it.
It's a non-issue.
Yes, if an idiot adjusts the belt improperly, there may be premature gear wear. Yes, if an idiot doesn't replace wear items when the belt is serviced, there may be increased wear. Yes, if an idiot doesn't spend $5.00 and replace the pin on the idler arm that is in single shear (on the early cars) and tightens that pin with an impact, it could break.
However, the same things are going to apply to Ken's thing. It's got lever arms in single shear. It's got bushings and pieces to wear out. Get 150,000 miles on it and it's going to need all kinds of repair....if it doesn't crack and fall off the front of the block before that. (Keep in mind that Ken's thing is made from mild steel and is bolted to an aluminum block with completely different expansion rates. Your alternator bracket made from steel? How about the power steering bracket? A/C bracket? Air pump bracket?)
I'll keep the ultra reliable belt warning light system, thank you very much. I've worked on these things long enough to know exactly what that light is telling me. That light goes off and you know you have a problem....how it lights and when is the important thing. If a customer calls me with a tensioner light that just lit, I know exactly what questions to ask! I know if I need to schedule in a belt inspection and tightening, or if that customer needs to call a tow truck. If some idiot can't figure it out and the engine blows up....that's not the tensioner's fault. That's the idiot's fault.
Of the thousands (literally thousands) of 928s that I've worked on, I've had one belt failure that wasn't caused by a bad water pump or some idiot leaving something loose.
One belt failure!!!!!
Use the stock pieces. When the belt is due for replacement, replace the other pieces that are wear items, also. "Rebuild" the tensioner (replace the boot, adjusting screw, internal o-ring, and clamp so that it doesn't leak oil. Use a Factory or Gates timing belt that isn't a giant rubber band. Adjust the belt properly. Re-adjust the new belt at 2,000 miles and every 15,000 miles after that to the proper specification.
Forget the rest of the bull****. Forget the horror stories....they are designed to transfer your hard earned money to someone else.
Do it right, the first time, and forget it.
It's a non-issue.
...The stock tensioner if installed, adjusted & maintained correctly will ensure adequate tension over a range of operating conditions for the life of the belt. It does not dynamically adjust tension in real time, but has a slow heat based adjustment to compensate for heat effects to the belt. The warning system will trigger for tension conditions below the warning threshold (slack belt) but not for overtension cases (always assuming the warning system isn't bypassed). ...
Alan
Alan
Alan
11-12-2014, 05:50 PM
#64
Former Sponsor
So to the other solutions out there - my point was only that the technology standard today for timing belt systems is the hydraulic damped tensioner. I don't think that is news
There don't seem to have been many other designs that used belleville washer tensioners like Porsche did. I also don't see any with tension warning systems except for Porsche. The hydraulic tensioner designs and the tensioner roller designs also seem to fairly standardized across engine ranges by manufacturer. So it seems it is considered a reliable solution (with the usual periodic tensioner/belt maintenance) that doesn't require a monitoring system.
Retrofitting across to a different vehicle for sure creates a new scenario and that speaks to the quality of an aftermarket solution. However I'd expect the belt tension & adjustment range requirement to be similar for similar length belts of the same construction.
Yes - I do agree - my point was that with the stock tensioner unit - if you install it correctly, set tension correctly and maintain it correctly - will work just fine for the expected life of the belt:
But there are lots of people who don't adjust or maintain it well - including those who bypass the (annoying?) warning system
Alan
There don't seem to have been many other designs that used belleville washer tensioners like Porsche did. I also don't see any with tension warning systems except for Porsche. The hydraulic tensioner designs and the tensioner roller designs also seem to fairly standardized across engine ranges by manufacturer. So it seems it is considered a reliable solution (with the usual periodic tensioner/belt maintenance) that doesn't require a monitoring system.
Retrofitting across to a different vehicle for sure creates a new scenario and that speaks to the quality of an aftermarket solution. However I'd expect the belt tension & adjustment range requirement to be similar for similar length belts of the same construction.
Yes - I do agree - my point was that with the stock tensioner unit - if you install it correctly, set tension correctly and maintain it correctly - will work just fine for the expected life of the belt:
But there are lots of people who don't adjust or maintain it well - including those who bypass the (annoying?) warning system
Alan
My distinction was simply to point out that those later model tensioning systems, on all those engines that they are on, are engineered to work on each specific engine.
A cobbled up bunch of pieces bolted onto a mild steel bracket, which is bolted to an aluminum block (which expands at a different rate than the steel bracket) might not pass their engineering standards or last for as many miles as people expect.
Therefore I use (and encourage my customers to use) the stock tensioner and associated pieces.
Everyone else can do as they please.
Please note that I have the factory tool to adjust the belt and the tool gets calibrated before each adjustment. Without that tool, I might feel differently and build something better. You can bet that "something better" would expand at the same rate as the block (so that the mounting hardware is not "tweaked" each and every time the engines heats and cools) and be engineered to keep the belt at a specific tension, which would allow the belt warning system to be functional.
11-12-2014, 06:28 PM
#65
Inventor
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Huh? That's all you do in these types of threads. Albeit in a progressively lamer and lamer fashion.Quote one in this thread.
50, 60, 70, thousand miles already long past on many. (Recommend replace belt at 50.) All without having to revisit a stinky mechanic at 2 and every 15.
11-12-2014, 07:08 PM
#66
Administrator - "Tyson"
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11-13-2014, 12:28 AM
#67
Shameful Thread Killer
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Thread Starter
I didn't want this thread to go this way. I'm glad we have both systems, and I'd like to encourage everyone to end it here. My question has basically been answered, and continued discussion isn't productive.
11-13-2014, 04:02 PM
#68
The rational issue with the human condition is lost in this debate.
Greg does it right, and when you are his customer, your **** works. You don't need a different tensioner. No more questions.
Everyone else, including people who THINK they have a "mechanic", need this so there aren't any problems - its dumb-proof. The original tensioner, I think many would agree - is NOT dumb-proof. You need to intensely understand the system.
I will leave out my opinion on the active tensioning current technology uses. The point here is its about who is working on the car.
Greg does it right, and when you are his customer, your **** works. You don't need a different tensioner. No more questions.
Everyone else, including people who THINK they have a "mechanic", need this so there aren't any problems - its dumb-proof. The original tensioner, I think many would agree - is NOT dumb-proof. You need to intensely understand the system.
I will leave out my opinion on the active tensioning current technology uses. The point here is its about who is working on the car.
11-14-2014, 12:44 PM
#69
Rennlist Member
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Originally Posted by Adamant1971 View Post How many times do we
If you don't need to read it, then don't read it. Your time is better spent elsewhere, no problem
