mark kibort

I did it both ways. i couldnt notice any other differernce than just what i said. with full abs, it stops a lot longer. when the ABS engages, it just 'gives way" it just acts like ABS acts, like when you slam on the brakes in the rain with the rental car! Nothing like the porsche cup car ABS.
the temps were over 1000 degrees, but got fade, but thats on the inner part of the rotor. so i would expect pad to rotor temps to be much higher.
the calipers stayed cool. 475 is what i measured at the track coming in from the race. the paint justs showed it was less than 600 degrees, as i would expect.

I calibrated the paint with a IR probe and a torch before i went out. as the aluminum sheet i was flaming from the back, started to melt, the color temp turned light green, or what is supposed to be 1,000 to 1,100 degrees F . its really hard to simulate race speeds and braking on an open road. had to get the tires hot, and then , let brakes cool like i did on my qual laps at laguna. and then hit the brakes hard til fade. i could get them to fade with some fast decel rates. I could get them to fade with and without the ABS engaged. the only way to really test whether the ABS is better than a skilled foot, is to stand on the brakes at turn 2 braking points at laguna with and without ABS. i already know the car , and with ABS engaged , it lengthens the stopping distance by a very substantial amount of distance.

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mark kibort

Greg, I listen to all you write, but on this topic and the insults to my driving are interesting. Ive said it again. you have talked about Mark Anderson as one of the faster drivers. ive driven a car , with basically no mods to speak of.. only bolt on suspension , set at near stock settings with some big tires and 15% HP gain over stock.

I run a 1:36.1 at laguna. do you know anyone , any top pro that has done that in a car with as little power as i did. Angelli,, pobst, etc exc, all the porsche record for their best porsche GT3, ,on the best and newest DOT racing rubber, failed to even come close to my time there. in the later 2000s, their times were 1:39 and then dipping into the 138s for a brand new, DOT clad, porsche GT3. now, the cars are so fast, they are knocking on the 1:32s with the new vet, viper, GT3, etc. but give me a little credit. Im doing it with a near 30 year old car!! (still with all original bushings too!! )
so, either im driving the car right, or the car is absolutely amazing. (or could it be a little bit of both) remember, ive raced against mark, most recently, in his car vs mine, we were 2.5 seconds apart.
Mark has in his corner (your words)
"best driver you have seen'
your engine
your set up
new prirellis
motons
wings,
splitters
bigger tires
more rigid chassis
bigger brakes
100lbs lighter
and 200 MORE HP.

and yet, im only 2.5 seconds behind him in a pro race. thats mediocre?

If my car is not driven to its potential, what would be its potential if i had even a fraction of what anderson had in his car???

even in 1999, when my car was over 13 years old, the winning time on BFGR1s, was 1:37, by peter kitchak in a cheater RSR remember, he passed mark , like he was standing still.. These are the best drvers around by the way. yet, somehow, if my little S-box was around then, look where i would have been. sure the track is 1 second faster now, by most all accounts, but still Anderson was running 1:40.1 in his race there.

you put me in a car that has some capability and ill show you some things. thats for sure! There are guys i was racing with that went on to do their first pro races. no where near the level of our group of experienced club racers, yet with the right car, ended up running fastest laps in the WCGT races just a few years ago. (see gunter shaldach) also see him fly over the turn 1 wall at 150mph.

Lots of guys can run fast laps. for me, its pretty easy. The real trick in racing is not the fast lap times, its the strategy and positioning of your car, while keeping it safe and not breaking it!!

Dont you just wonder, how i can run that fast, and in 15 years of racing competitively, never blow up a motor, fry that baby clutch that cant handle more than 350ftlbs of torque, and i have 400, have transmissions that last 8 years that start out being 15 years old, and still drive the car to and from the track 90% of the time????? maybe if you thought about what im doing, you might be able to learn from things that i do, rather than just condemn them to make your self feel better or make excuses for those that havent been able to race the 928 for more than a weekend, at 10% slower lap times before they blow up.

watch this lap and YOU tell me what you would be doing different to run faster than i have at laguna in this video:

How is all this possible Mr OZ?

Now, lets get a dose of reality here.

Ive driven the car at the track in question here for more racing starts than anyone you know over the last 15 years. Ive been able to try all the tricks i can to improve. ive pushed that pedal as far as i could and engaged the ABS for fun, and watched my turn in marker blow by! (going way deep before turn in time) back when i had full brakes and no fade at the end of the main straight) its the hardest braking zone in racing for the west coast. why, oh yeah, my BS education/intellect cant figure out that the KE for 130 to 45 is the greatest KE spread of any track in california, AND, its a near 10% grade downhill.
But, the point is, before i had the problem with fade, the abs just let the tires slide out

To your point of me thinking as fast as the 928 ABS...absolutely. its scan cycles are so slow its putting max pressure and releasing at a frequency, that is much less than a steady foot just above lock up. again, HP are under the curve. simple stuff. however, increase that frequency like the new systems that are not 30 years old, and the reverse happens. then, you are right.

Im all for a test here , in the open, for all to see to prove you wrong on this one, and its an easy test to conduct. you set up the parameters and Ill do the test. as it stands now, ill go to laguna again next month and in practice, ill call it out on the video and do a full press ABS slow down at the markers i use for braking. ill do it again by not engaging ABS. You be the judge of why i wont be able to turn in at the same spot. the abs just allows you to slide further down the track.
dont take my word for it, there are others that have seen this happen.

I was going to put my money up for a ride with TRG this sonoma weekend. i had a pretty good rate for the Aston martin, but its just too expensive with the test day required and the insurance. But, if i win, there would be a lot of that returned. SO, im trying to get local high tech sponsors to help. had a couple nibbles, but nothing came through.
The aston is very similar to the 928 in feel on the track. But, its a more responsive car with better balance and the power they are making with the stock motor and the allowed mods are over 450rwhp.Ive already dropped 3 seconds for the 50hp imagine what near 100 more hp might do, along with real slicks, and a real racing set up, not to mention 30 year newer technology.

GregBBRD

Five simple points:

I was never responsible for the set-up in Mark Anderson's car.
I though he was completely nuts to remove the ABS from his own car.

Continued debate of those points is absurd.

Mark is not the best driver I've ever seen....however, he's certainly the best 928 driver I've ever seen.

Continued debate of that point is absurd.

Porsche Cup Cars do not have ABS...although you keep referring to them having it.

Continued debate of that point is absurd.

I see and understand your lap times. I know you can turn a respectable lap on your "home" tracks, where you have driven 1000's of laps....you should know every little tiny trick to get around those tracks quickly! However, Repetitiveness and familiarity do not make a good race driver. Need we talk about your lap times at Willow, where they used a sun dial to measure your times? (In contrast, Mark Anderson can go to your home track and very consistently beat your best.)

I stand by the obvious....a race car with functional ABS, with a driver that is trained to use said ABS (compensating for the shorter stopping distances because of ABS) will consistently turn better lap times. Using a computer to bring all 4 tires to their lock up point (without actually locking them up) is always going to be better than any human could possibly do. (Duh)

Continuing to argue that point is completely absurd. My pet dog is smart enough to grasp that concept.

Your own car would be faster with a fuctional ABS system, the proper bias, and a suspension set-up that allowed the rear tires to do more work.

Continuing to debate that point is also absurd.

Like I said, you never will listen to anyone about anything. I'm not trying to get you to change your own car.....or listen to simple logic.....that has been proven, dizens of times, to be completely futile.

I'm simply making points for others that do have the ability and ego that allows them to listen.

PorKen

Not sure if it helps your case but I don't think it has been mentioned in this thread that the 928 ABS is only a 3-channel system.
Under ABS, the rears are always modulated together (hence the single bias valve). The fronts each have their own channel.
The 928 system is biased towards control of the front wheels versus maximum braking.

The 928 ABS pump never pushes harder than pedal pressure so technically each ABS thump is reducing the maximum braking potential versus threshold braking in good conditions.



Also, the 928 brain is kind of a generic box, not precisely tuned for any particular 928. The same part number is used over many years and on 944/968!

RKD in OKC

That's interesting I cut my teeth driving and setting up a 944 Turbo S. And find the 928 very similar, however there have been some differences like the effective slip angle of the weissach rear end and the suspension taking a set (like the issue when lifting then doing alignment).

As a note having setup both a GT and a GTS have found that while the wider rear track and tire widths make the GTS more stable and grippier out of the corners, it also makes it less nimble on turn in. And it has been a little more difficult determining the correct bias valve.

Seems that with LSD or PSD you wouldn't want the rear ABS channels to be split.

GregBBRD

There is no "case". There's no possible way any human can make their brain and foot work faster or better than any generation ABS system.....even you should be smart enough to figure this out.

You are also missing one main point.....I don't personally care what Kibort does to his own car....it has zero impact on anything I say or do.....and I've stated this, several times. If you read my posts, I'm making generic comments about ABS and how well it works, especially for racecars. I'm also providing "clues" on how to use the ABS system, in a racing situation.

If any of you know someone that knows more about this subject than me....has more experience with Porsche racecars than me....by all means call them up and listen to what they have to say! I'm not pretending to be an expert....I'm just relaying my experiences.

There's no doubt that the ABS system in the 928 is an old generation system. Indeed it does have a separate brain that is from technology that is 30 years old (at least). It is slow....but it does what it is intended to do....it will bring all 4 tires into an "ABS" mode if asked to do so.

Sometimes, people miss the really obvious things that are happening....especially in racing. Most of the time I just keep laughing as they keep beating their heads on the walls. It is certainly not my purpose, in life, to educate everyone.

But here's a clue; What people are doing:

For the price of a new set of front brake pads, it is possible to contact a wrecking yard and get a current generation ABS unit, from a late model Porsche, which will fit very easily into a 928. Self contained, current technology, faster than a speeding bullet, etc. Wiring and plumbing required.

For the really serious people that don't think their brain and foot can outperform a computer, are not happy being stuck on a plateau, or have not maxed out their ability to drive, one can also get a full racing programmable ABS pump, from Bosch....these things turn a "nightmare to figure out how to brake" Cup Car into a pure delight.....when "local" rules allow this modification.

mark kibort

Greg,
Here are my 5 simple points to you

yes, 2.5 seconds is an eternity in a battle, but very close with alll the deficits i had. just the HP alone would provide that.
when we ran the same car, what happened at a very technical track?? yes, i was faster.
you talk about 928 abs working better than a skilled foot and that is simply not true. its a 3 channel system... AND you also talk about engaging the the rear abs if i "continue to push the pedal harder". really?? do you remember that the engine is tied to the gear box and driveline???? the rear cant lock up or rengage ABS, when in gear. if it does (based on a certain speed % that is factor design) you wouldnt want it anyway, because naturally, the engine braking is a type of ABS decel system. you usually see rear lockup when folks are a little slow in downshifts and during heal toeing, they get a rear to lock. this is where ABS can help. normally, not so much in the rear. your only case is for the front tires.... and our ABS is not racing ABS. many would agree
again, i would welcome any test to prove my point or to test yours.

Being a good racer, has nothing to do with 1000s of laps.
Ive been running the same times there, for 10 years now. a turn is a turn. It's pretty easy to learn a track and find the limits.
watch that laguna lap. there are no tricks there. its basically point and shoot. Willow springs is a very technical track to run fast, I was very inexperienced my first time, but i thought i did pretty well in a car with only 230hp. 1:34 about 15 years ago. ive only driven the track a few times, i raced with Anderson driving Joes car on corded tires . plus, it wasnt my car.... ran a 1:29.xx which was well off its potential 1:24ish, but again, it wasnt my car.... i was out there to enjoy the car and track, not hurt anything....... again, willow is a very unique track.
let's go button willow, even something new, like cal speedway. I'm game to put any of your preconceived notions to the test.
remember, mark and i ran the same 928 in two races.... who was faster both times ?? a point you seem to forget while on the attack about my driving.

mark kibort

Greg, how does the ABS bring the rear tires into "ABS mode" when the car is in gear , as it should be on decel? certainly would be protection though in the turn , as maybe lifting a wheel could allow for lock up of that inside tire, and keep the LSD from burning up. OH, thats right, it cant do that, because its only 3 channel.

yes, you are right you are not an expert here on this topic Greg, so stop saying that you are not, but acting like you are!

it is very easy to prove that our 928 abs is not as fast as a skilled foot. sure the computer is working hard, but it cant match the effect of just threshold braking in a straight line. even in the rain, the abs gives way. i ran it in that pro race against mark.. oh yeah, where i beat him. same day, same type of car, where hp didnt matter. i wonder why??
by the way, it wasnt due to ABS, it was due to power out of turns, line choice. watch and see what you think . or are their more excuses of why i such and Anderson is the best yet, 3 times i beat him, 2 in the same car, and one in a much lesser prepared car. Not saying im better here. but, i think im clearly on par with Mark. However, i do think he has more experience and skill in faster cars, especially his, which I would need sometime to adjust to if i wanted to get to his lap time performances.

mark kibort

greg... watch this race, at about 4:00 and see the subtle differences of a rain race with Mark.
you can hear the brakes, so no ABS engaging. I think i heard it engage once the entire race.
again, like on dry, in my experience, its a safety net if you get scared and just press the pedal in fear. even in the wet, if you can remain calm, you can stop a 928 faster without abs than with it