Ringing sound on SC car
10-06-2014, 12:22 PM
#31
Developer
Pete, the K-Jet PCV system is similar, but not the same. Again, we have two PCV systems we can install. The race system that goes to a catch can (and as a result has to be checked and emptied on occasion) or the street system that re-burns the crankcase gases and needs no servicing at any time by the owner.
Your car is getting the street system.
Your car is getting the street system.
10-06-2014, 04:03 PM
#32
Nordschleife Master
John McKenzie's test of pressures seen at the dipstick tube prove it is working well. Even though supercharged, he still draws a vacuum at idle (which helpos the rings seal, and the engine make all available HP).
If John could have driven the car with his pressure gauge on the dipstick tube to monitor crankcase pressure, he would see a near-zero pressure condition at all partial throttle points. Under WOT and max load, he would slowly see the crankcase become slightly pressurized by red-line, and immediately return to zero pressure the moment he lifts out of the throttle.
As very little time is actually spent at WOT, max load and red-line; and because the pressure is immediately evacuated; this is of no concern.
If John could have driven the car with his pressure gauge on the dipstick tube to monitor crankcase pressure, he would see a near-zero pressure condition at all partial throttle points. Under WOT and max load, he would slowly see the crankcase become slightly pressurized by red-line, and immediately return to zero pressure the moment he lifts out of the throttle.
As very little time is actually spent at WOT, max load and red-line; and because the pressure is immediately evacuated; this is of no concern.
In one sentence, you speak of the benefits of vacuum in the crankcase, but then state at higher RPMs you admit that the crankcase will be pressurized, thus knowingly admitting that the benefits are not going to be there, infact the opposite is going to happen and you will loose power......
So for those following along, pressurizing the crankcase is a bad idea, and if you are only boosting your engine for 2-3 seconds at a time, this MIGHT be OK, but if you are on boost for 10+ seconds the pressure in the crankcase will grow exponentially and will eventually pop out a seal.
10-06-2014, 08:49 PM
#33
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Hi Colin,
I think my work around will supply a controlled vacuum leak to the crankcase, and will also function as a crankcase blow off valve, if there is such a thing. As far as un-metered air, I agree, but my AFR gauge does not reflect any extreme mixtures.
Thanks
John (Dave) McKenzie
I think my work around will supply a controlled vacuum leak to the crankcase, and will also function as a crankcase blow off valve, if there is such a thing. As far as un-metered air, I agree, but my AFR gauge does not reflect any extreme mixtures.
Thanks
John (Dave) McKenzie
10-07-2014, 04:16 PM
#38
Developer
#1) He is still ingesting as much crankcase gas as he was OEM. The prior connection for the hose from PCV to base of throttle body is very close to the same size connection he is now using at the side of the intake manifold. What has changed is the PCV system is now after the throttle plate instead of before the throttle plate.
One could argue that all PCV systems let in "unmetered air" as it is an unknown amount of gas that gets by the rings; or one could argue it is metered, and controlled by the size of the orifice at the intake where the hose connects. Which has not significantly changed. Either way.
#2 Drawing in a little fresh air into the crankcase at idle does not appear to be significant. I would expect if he was significantly altering the A/F ratio at idle, he would see his idle speed change. He has not. And the engine is not under load at idle, so no harm, no foul as far as I can tell.
#3 Off idle, but not under boost. 1000 to 3000 rpm. Highway cruising. Crankcase pressure at or near zero. Vacuum in the manifold not as high as at idle because the throttle plate is cracked open. Air flow at his little bleeder probably static. Neither in nor out. Engine load is also not high at partial throttle. To say this little vent is causing a lean condition in this rpm range and part throttle is speculative, and only a dyno test with A/F metered could confirm. I suspect it is not.
#4 Under boost. 3000 to redline. The plenum is under pressure, not vacuum. The PCV valve closes (unless he has removed it) and no air flows in the direction of the crankcase from the intake manifold. The PCV system is again not modifying the tune.
#5 The O2 sensor on an L-Jet does very little, and even more, we disconnect them on our L-Jet installations. Our testing on the dyno has shown that when we disconnect the O2 sensor on L-Jet cars, we get a little richer A/F ratio - which is what we want.
Having said all this - I also dyno test my installs when I do them to confirm the A/F ratio under different loads and rpm's. However, I did not perform this install, and so I do not have his A/F chart to look at.
But I can offer these dyno charts that I do have that show the A/F level on a L-Jet equipped install with our supercharger kit. The A/F ratios are stable, in the range we want them to be, and not problematic.
I hope this answers your questions.
One could argue that all PCV systems let in "unmetered air" as it is an unknown amount of gas that gets by the rings; or one could argue it is metered, and controlled by the size of the orifice at the intake where the hose connects. Which has not significantly changed. Either way.
#2 Drawing in a little fresh air into the crankcase at idle does not appear to be significant. I would expect if he was significantly altering the A/F ratio at idle, he would see his idle speed change. He has not. And the engine is not under load at idle, so no harm, no foul as far as I can tell.
#3 Off idle, but not under boost. 1000 to 3000 rpm. Highway cruising. Crankcase pressure at or near zero. Vacuum in the manifold not as high as at idle because the throttle plate is cracked open. Air flow at his little bleeder probably static. Neither in nor out. Engine load is also not high at partial throttle. To say this little vent is causing a lean condition in this rpm range and part throttle is speculative, and only a dyno test with A/F metered could confirm. I suspect it is not.
#4 Under boost. 3000 to redline. The plenum is under pressure, not vacuum. The PCV valve closes (unless he has removed it) and no air flows in the direction of the crankcase from the intake manifold. The PCV system is again not modifying the tune.
#5 The O2 sensor on an L-Jet does very little, and even more, we disconnect them on our L-Jet installations. Our testing on the dyno has shown that when we disconnect the O2 sensor on L-Jet cars, we get a little richer A/F ratio - which is what we want.
Having said all this - I also dyno test my installs when I do them to confirm the A/F ratio under different loads and rpm's. However, I did not perform this install, and so I do not have his A/F chart to look at.
But I can offer these dyno charts that I do have that show the A/F level on a L-Jet equipped install with our supercharger kit. The A/F ratios are stable, in the range we want them to be, and not problematic.
I hope this answers your questions.
Last edited by Carl Fausett; 10-07-2014 at 04:38 PM.
10-07-2014, 09:26 PM
#39
The quickest "fix" is to go racer on the install, and evacuate the crankcase fumes to a catch can with a breather on top.
But, for our street kit, we kept the PCV system in place are vacuuming the crankcase fumes into the intake manifold to be re-burned, OEM-style.
Sean, I understand you were not able to finish the intercooler installation anyway, so the customer is bringing the car here for that and a 6-speed install. I can sort this out when it gets here.
What John McKenzie did was simply to put a control valve on the cam tower to limit the amount of vacuum in the crankcase at idle. That stopped his whistling.
But, for our street kit, we kept the PCV system in place are vacuuming the crankcase fumes into the intake manifold to be re-burned, OEM-style.
Sean, I understand you were not able to finish the intercooler installation anyway, so the customer is bringing the car here for that and a 6-speed install. I can sort this out when it gets here.
What John McKenzie did was simply to put a control valve on the cam tower to limit the amount of vacuum in the crankcase at idle. That stopped his whistling.
There's a very good reason I couldn't get the IC to work, but you already knew that so I'm not sure why you'd bring it up. I'm sure it has nothing to do with my mechanical abilities.
I'm sure the parts supplied to the fueling system were not due to my inability to figure out the install either. Got tired of waiting several days each week for proper fittings after opening the boxes and finding **** like this. I am of the opinion you did this sort of thing on purpose to screw with me, costing my customer money and me time.
On the crank case ventilation you supplied, I'm still not understanding how this system is supposed to work though. I see what you are trying to accomplish if the customer is only under boost for a very short time, and by short time I mean, almost never. Is that what this set up is geared to?
If you take another plug out of the cam carrier and install a nipple and something to help alleviate the pressure to atmosphere, I think pulling the two hoses off the intake is not really necessary.
Overall, I was impressed with the way the SC responded and how the car drove with it. It was odd that the FMU kept giving different pressure and had a feeling that it was failing. It might have just been set up bad as it didn't seem to want to hold pressures at idle the way I wanted it to. We might have that solved though.
Last edited by SeanR; 10-07-2014 at 09:42 PM.
10-07-2014, 09:51 PM
#40
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I had trouble fitting the IC as well. It took some fiddling and some creative trimming on the silicone elbow, but I think I got a decent fit and a complete seal. Here's a pic:
Good luck,
Dave
10-07-2014, 09:56 PM
#41
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Hi again, Sean,
Looking again at your picture and my IC, I do indeed see your problem. They did not provide the 45 degree down pipe on the IC. They are custom made, and it looks like Bell Intercoolers goofed. If that is correct, I would bet that Carl will get you the proper one. It looks like an honest mistake, which is frustrating, but a good vendor that Carl is, will make it good. Time delay is unfortunate, and for a professional it must be even more frustrating.
Sorry,
Dave
Looking again at your picture and my IC, I do indeed see your problem. They did not provide the 45 degree down pipe on the IC. They are custom made, and it looks like Bell Intercoolers goofed. If that is correct, I would bet that Carl will get you the proper one. It looks like an honest mistake, which is frustrating, but a good vendor that Carl is, will make it good. Time delay is unfortunate, and for a professional it must be even more frustrating.
Sorry,
Dave
10-07-2014, 10:16 PM
#42
Dave, this was a 2nd hand kit and the parts looked like they were a decade old. When it came to the IC, I just bought my own tubing and parts and made it a stage one kit. No idea how that IC was used on a 16v car in the past. It was the lesser of the issues. The car was here for several months waiting on parts and the owner was as frustrated with it as I was. I was not about the let the car leave with that crank case vent system. There were many issues and I think we figured out the major ones after a trip to the customers house and it had had a bit of driving.
Overall, the car performed well with the SC kit as I had it installed. The FMU, aside from being a decade old was the thorn and at this point I think that has been sorted. Carls way of hooking it up is not to what Begi recommends, and that was what I was using, but it seems to work in this application. Going forward should be interesting. I think the FMU is close to failure but what do I know.
I wish you luck Dave and hope that Carl continues to support and make the kit enjoyable. I've tried my best to smooth past issues with Carl as best that I can. We shall see how that turns out.
Overall, the car performed well with the SC kit as I had it installed. The FMU, aside from being a decade old was the thorn and at this point I think that has been sorted. Carls way of hooking it up is not to what Begi recommends, and that was what I was using, but it seems to work in this application. Going forward should be interesting. I think the FMU is close to failure but what do I know.
I wish you luck Dave and hope that Carl continues to support and make the kit enjoyable. I've tried my best to smooth past issues with Carl as best that I can. We shall see how that turns out.
10-08-2014, 10:26 AM
#43
Developer
It's always a challenge when a used kit goes on sale and is provided to a new customer. I am never sure that the new customer actually got all the previous parts, or that they are right for his car.
That's why we volunteer to follow along and support the kit like we do.
I'm sorry if you feel this way:
but you could not be more wrong. We provided and shipped the parts you were missing very quickly. At your request, we supplied:
Fuel connectors, Ordered 7/2, shipped 7/2 USPS Tracking number 0004000074513633953876210
Crank Breather system, Metric barbed Vacuum Nipple, Belt Tension Tool, L-Jet clamp and nuts, Fuel fitting to Fuel cooler, Ordered 7/3, shipped 7/7. USPS Tracking number 9405510200881242638529
So, if you were waiting for parts for several months, it wasn't from us. It would be nice if you would clarify that instead of inferring the delay was our fault which is what you have done.
And that intercooler was an 10+ year-old design that we have since re-engineered to fit better - and the customer was told he could send it here and we would update it for you.
But regards "burying the hatchet"; your comments of the PCV system being "amusing", inferring that you had to wait for several months for parts from us (which is not true) and suggesting we would deliberately send bad parts just to mess with you - well, that doesn't help bury the hatchet does it, Sean. Instead it sort of perpetuates the BS. I do not have the need or the time for the drama, so believe me, we were trying to get it right the first time. Its hard to do with an old, incomplete kit.
What is it they say: "no good turn shall go unpunished"?
That's why we volunteer to follow along and support the kit like we do.
I'm sorry if you feel this way:
I am of the opinion you did this sort of thing on purpose to screw with me, costing my customer money and me time.
Fuel connectors, Ordered 7/2, shipped 7/2 USPS Tracking number 0004000074513633953876210
Crank Breather system, Metric barbed Vacuum Nipple, Belt Tension Tool, L-Jet clamp and nuts, Fuel fitting to Fuel cooler, Ordered 7/3, shipped 7/7. USPS Tracking number 9405510200881242638529
So, if you were waiting for parts for several months, it wasn't from us. It would be nice if you would clarify that instead of inferring the delay was our fault which is what you have done.
And that intercooler was an 10+ year-old design that we have since re-engineered to fit better - and the customer was told he could send it here and we would update it for you.
But regards "burying the hatchet"; your comments of the PCV system being "amusing", inferring that you had to wait for several months for parts from us (which is not true) and suggesting we would deliberately send bad parts just to mess with you - well, that doesn't help bury the hatchet does it, Sean. Instead it sort of perpetuates the BS. I do not have the need or the time for the drama, so believe me, we were trying to get it right the first time. Its hard to do with an old, incomplete kit.
What is it they say: "no good turn shall go unpunished"?
Last edited by Carl Fausett; 10-08-2014 at 10:41 AM.
10-08-2014, 03:28 PM
#44
Rennlist Member
Just caught up with this thread. Its interesting to see the issues I battled with for several years have come to surface on this build. The crankcase venting and pressure/vacumm/oil usage/leaks/ constant cleaning/smells, etc, was the reason I removed the S/C kit. I really miss the extra power but going back to stock has improved the owning and driving experience.
10-15-2014, 11:04 AM
#45
Developer
Another idea
I happen to have a 16v car in the shop receiving one of our supercharger kits right now. Took this thread to the car to see if I couldn't work out yet another solution different from the others we have already discussed.
This particular car is a K-Jet, not a L-Jet, so the PCV system is not the same but it is similar.
Simple description is: I disconnected the PCV from re-breathing the fumes back into the intake manifold and routed it as a dump tube to atmosphere instead.
More detailed description: on our 16v kits we install a nipple in the cam tower and I run a hose from the top of the oil separator canister down to that nipple so that any oil droplets still in the gas-out line can congeal and drop back into the motor. A tee is installed in that line to evacuate the gases. This time I rotated the tee so we are extracting the gases from the top of the line (the missive oil, being heavy, will accumulate at the bottom) and the vent line is routed to the back of the motor and down to near the oil pan and away from the exhaust system.
His engine is tight, and there is nothing coming out of it. I've done this on other installs where warranted, and as long as the oil separator is working and the engine is in good shape, it doesn't so much as spot the parking area or make any odor at all.
These pictures show the PCV mod alongside the left bank running to the firewall where it then goes down. I used AN fittings and SS braided hose just to make it look sexy, it is not necessary. A standard rubber hose would be just fine - there is no pressure.
This particular car is a K-Jet, not a L-Jet, so the PCV system is not the same but it is similar.
Simple description is: I disconnected the PCV from re-breathing the fumes back into the intake manifold and routed it as a dump tube to atmosphere instead.
More detailed description: on our 16v kits we install a nipple in the cam tower and I run a hose from the top of the oil separator canister down to that nipple so that any oil droplets still in the gas-out line can congeal and drop back into the motor. A tee is installed in that line to evacuate the gases. This time I rotated the tee so we are extracting the gases from the top of the line (the missive oil, being heavy, will accumulate at the bottom) and the vent line is routed to the back of the motor and down to near the oil pan and away from the exhaust system.
His engine is tight, and there is nothing coming out of it. I've done this on other installs where warranted, and as long as the oil separator is working and the engine is in good shape, it doesn't so much as spot the parking area or make any odor at all.
These pictures show the PCV mod alongside the left bank running to the firewall where it then goes down. I used AN fittings and SS braided hose just to make it look sexy, it is not necessary. A standard rubber hose would be just fine - there is no pressure.