davek9

Thanks Greg

danglerb

Cheap 16v owners like myself might prefer thermal coated mild steel to stainless.

GregBBRD

Have you looked at your avatar, lately?

That work of art is stainless.....

GregBBRD

So, we went to the dyno, today, to capture a couple of baselines, on the 86.5 we are working on.

Here's the results:



The first two runs (which are easy to spot, there's an increase in both torque and horsepower between 2750 to 3250rpms) are with the Porken chips, the late model fuel pressure regulator, and his intake manifold spacers.

The second two runs were with the stock chips and the stock fuel pressure regulator.

PorKen

I don't recall it being said. Stock cats? Auto?

(The intake smoothers/spacers are for part throttle response, not WOT, BTW.)

The LH harness plugs should be plugged together, it looks like. S300s runs are too lean. (pic)

S3s plateau at ~5800 rpm. (With S300s chips, it will maintain that level to 6400, though.)
It will be interesting to see if the HP keeps rising with the headers.

GregBBRD

Manual with stock cats.

I expected to see an increase in performance, with your chips and fuel pressure regulator. About all I got was the dyno operator stopping the very first pull, him telling me it was pinging very badly, and asking me if I wanted to continue. I also got some white puffs of smoke, out of the exhaust, from about 4,000 to when he stopped the test, which were not there with the stock chips. I assumed this was a function of pre-ignition?

PorKen

You will definitely need more fuel. When are you going in with the headers?

I will mail the WOT adjuster tonight (airport PO) - installation manual here

GregBBRD

Agreed, about needing more fuel.

Hard to tell from that dyno chart information I posted, but your chips are the ones that are slightly above the 14 to 1 line, above 5,000 rpms, on the chart.

I'll check with the client, but I think I can hang loose, for a couple of days. If not, I can always backtrack to this point.

The stock chip results seem very strong, for a stock 86.5 engine.

PorKen

There was a huge line at the PO, the automated machine was down, and I was late for a movie. Anyhu, I didn't send the adjuster, but I will tomorrow.


With a little more time to look at the graph above, I have a few more notes.
First, STD correction was used, SAE is probably around 10 less, here. Tailpipe AFRs will be 0.5 to 1.0 leaner than measured at the cat/X-pipe.
Also, S3 runs should start at 2000 rpm - peak torque is at just 2700 - and go to at least 6000. The first S300s run was started too late for peak torque.

I'm pretty sure the air was too hot for all runs. (Water temp should be as low as possible to start, too.)
S300s runs are absolutely running some heavy retard over 5000 rpm. The 290 rwtq STD peak is good, but then it starts to go downhill as the airbox heats up.
They will ALWAYS dyno higher than stock in good air, but actually have higher retard than stock at high air temps for safety.

I literally fought for years, over hundreds of dyno runs, to get over 300 rwhp SAE(!) because of hot air.
Just 2 degrees more advance can mean 10 more hp!


One other important tip, cover the radiators and empty space up to the bumper with a panel AND/OR extend the air tubes as below, so as to not pull hot air from the radiator.

Also, Greg should not be talking during runs (hot air)!

GregBBRD

Hmmm. Beginning to understand why people's horsepower numbers are so different than mine.....you are not dealing with reality....you cheated!

If you drive one of these cars, down the road, with the hood closed, the radiator heat blowing over the intake system, and the exhaust heat raising....those runners/intake system get hot.

No wonder this poor thing "rattled" like a diesel, under load.....

For my own personal claims about what my products do, I'm more interested in day to day reality, not some artificially induced power adding factor.

As it was, I put a giant fan over the intake system (which I normally do not do) and the intake system was cooler than what was realistic.

PorKen

As with many things, we disagree so this will be my last post on the subject in this thread.

As I have said, I have spent countless hours on the dyno with S3s and have have found that these things must be done to produce consistent, repeatable, results. IE. not variable by temperature. Consistency.

Running on the dyno is a completely unrelated to actual driving. When moving, airflow will and does cool the intake and engine.


If you do not do these types of things, you are operating in the overheat zone of whatever chips/tune you are using, be it S3, S4, whatever. This is why you get 'bad' results on this (or any) dyno.

Your DynoJet looks to produce the same results as the one I use. It is not a 'heartbreaker', as you would like to think.
270 rwtq SAE is about right for a S3 5-speed w/cats. An X-pipe will put it close to 290, if the air temp is kept stable.

BC

Dyno tuning is a double edged sword. You have to do it unless you have the resources or time (or *****) to do full on-road tuning for all maps (meaning 5th at 6k rpm).

And to do the dyno tuning and get the map spaces to work is sometimes determined by the parameters of the car. More than sometimes.

Recently, it was found that the new BMW M5 (RWD) cannot be dyno'd on a 2wd dyno because there is no setting that will reliably give you a proper power figure of ANY sort (it will shut the car off) if the front wheels are spinning at less than the rear. So you have to run the thing on a 4wd dyno.

Dinan did an article many years ago about what they had to do to even get STOCK figures from the higher HP bmws - tricking air temperature sensors, blowing air at specific speeds past other sensors, etc.

Its getting harder the newer the vehicle.

PorKen

I did not see the additional questions of this edited post.

Obviously, the engine was running lean. S3s cannot self-adjust so it up to the installer to verify correct running parameters.

Did you plug the LH harness plugs together as I posted here (and as the website says to do for dyno runs)?

Was the MAF CO adjusted after the chips were installed? How many ohms?

What spark plugs were used? WR5DC are recommended.


BTW, putting 'a giant fan over the intake system' is NOT what I suggested and may have actually made things worse. A targeted airflow is what is required. A huge fan could serve to blow hot air forward and into the air intakes.

GregBBRD

Since temperature appears to be such a variable, this really points to needing to do individual tuning for each vehicle....like the Sharktuner does.

I live and tune in Southern California, with higher daily temperatures than you would experience in your farther north location. I can't rely on a 50 degree rainy day to get dyno bragging stuff.....nor do I want that. I want people to have expectations that are realistic.

My eyebrows went up, when you said that you were adding timing to your chips to get increased power.
I've had to remove timing on every single engine that I've tuned.....stock or high performance.

I print no "Hero Runs".....just reality.

I've got a good buddy, right down the street, Randy Aase, who does dyno testing and tuning for lots and lots of Porsche engines. WhenI was doing truck loads of GT2 Turbo engines and doing the dyno testing there, he passed on some thoughts about reality:

"Everyone wants a 600hp air cooled turbo engine. The reality is....I've never had one on my dyno. And every single turbo guy...owner or builder, wants a "Hero Run", where they start up a cold engine, put ice on the intercooler, add unrealistic timing, and dump fuel in with a bucket. I've still never seen one that makes 600hp. The really magical thing that occurs, is that a week after the engines leave here and are bolted into the car.....every single one makes way over 600hp."

hacker-pschorr

You have another option with the 85/86 cars.

When tuning with a shark tuner, simply turn the air intake temp sensor off, take it out of the equation. Then turn it back on when everything is tuned.

The whole point of that sensor is to protect the motor from excessive heat from whatever the baseline is set to. It's the same circuit as the low octane fuel loop.
It's more of a "dummy" switch anyway, above X degrees it takes out Y timing.

When doing this, it's a good idea to have a secondary sensor (one that is more sensitive than the stock one, which is pathetically slow) in the intake tract to make sure you are not feeding it unrealistically hot (or cool) air.

At least that is what I did with my 81, which has the same electronics as the 85/86 (EuroS version). I think I had three different temp sensors on my car when tuning it.