Question while doing timing belt and trying to keep crank from rotating
05-19-2014 | 10:37 PM
#46
Basic Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,843
Likes: 900
From: Double Oak, TX
I personally know of two versions of the Greg Brown fuel hoses - the first leaked but the second iteration was fixed and will not leak - time will tell - Touche!!!
And Greg knows what he is doing the same as Ken. He also has calculations and data.
Why do we continue to take cheap shots at the gifted members of this list???
And Greg knows what he is doing the same as Ken. He also has calculations and data.
Why do we continue to take cheap shots at the gifted members of this list???
__________________
Does it have the "Do It Yourself" manual transmission, or the superior "Fully Equipped by Porsche" Automatic Transmission?
George Layton March 2014
928 Owners are ".....a secret sect of quietly assured Porsche pragmatists who in near anonymity appreciate the prodigious, easy going prowess of the 928."
Does it have the "Do It Yourself" manual transmission, or the superior "Fully Equipped by Porsche" Automatic Transmission?
George Layton March 2014928 Owners are ".....a secret sect of quietly assured Porsche pragmatists who in near anonymity appreciate the prodigious, easy going prowess of the 928."
05-19-2014 | 11:12 PM
#47
Former Vendor
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,230
Likes: 2,489
From: Anaheim
Aside from finding the Porkensioner a useless replacement part for a very robust stock tensioner, as an engine builder, I found the Porkensioner an impossible piece to use, when assembling an engine.
I "attempted" to install a Porkensioner on Rob Edward's engine, when I assembled it. Got completely stumped, without any solution to be had, when attempting to set the cam timing. The cam belt was way, way, way too loose. According to Ken, the Porkensioner is looser when the engine is not running but gets much tighter when the engine is running. (Which is probably why there is no belt light on the silly thing....the light would be lit every single day.)
That's wonderful....but where exactly do I set the cam timing when the belt is loose? And does anyone really know how tight the belt gets when the engine is running and where the cam timing is then?
Of course not....there is zero engineering into this tensioner. Ken just throws out written crap....like he is doing now, attacking Jim Corenman and me. Instead of actually answering a question (which he has no idea of what the answer is....because he has zero information or hard data) he reverses everything. Great for debate class, in high school, but worthless when someone is looking for technical answers.
It comes down to this:
I'm way more precise that a Porkensioner could ever be, when I'm building an engine.
Completely useless device, for me and my tiny circle of clients.
I "attempted" to install a Porkensioner on Rob Edward's engine, when I assembled it. Got completely stumped, without any solution to be had, when attempting to set the cam timing. The cam belt was way, way, way too loose. According to Ken, the Porkensioner is looser when the engine is not running but gets much tighter when the engine is running. (Which is probably why there is no belt light on the silly thing....the light would be lit every single day.)
That's wonderful....but where exactly do I set the cam timing when the belt is loose? And does anyone really know how tight the belt gets when the engine is running and where the cam timing is then?
Of course not....there is zero engineering into this tensioner. Ken just throws out written crap....like he is doing now, attacking Jim Corenman and me. Instead of actually answering a question (which he has no idea of what the answer is....because he has zero information or hard data) he reverses everything. Great for debate class, in high school, but worthless when someone is looking for technical answers.
It comes down to this:
I'm way more precise that a Porkensioner could ever be, when I'm building an engine.
Completely useless device, for me and my tiny circle of clients.
05-19-2014 | 11:25 PM
#48
Former Vendor
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,230
Likes: 2,489
From: Anaheim
I personally know of two versions of the Greg Brown fuel hoses - the first leaked but the second iteration was fixed and will not leak - time will tell - Touche!!!
And Greg knows what he is doing the same as Ken. He also has calculations and data.
Why do we continue to take cheap shots at the gifted members of this list???
And Greg knows what he is doing the same as Ken. He also has calculations and data.
Why do we continue to take cheap shots at the gifted members of this list???
I did not make the fittings or the hose, of my original fuel lines....a huge company did. And they are still trying to figure out why their fittings cut the inside liner of their hose, in very isolated cases.
My solution was to have custom fittings made to use Teflon lined hose, to my specifications and offer a lifetime warranty, with free replacement, if they ever leak.
I also send anyone that has one of the original version hoses that seep, free replacement hoses.
Ken does that?
Laso does that?
Pretty clearly not.
05-19-2014 | 11:52 PM
#49
Inventor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 10,177
Likes: 412
I "attempted" to install a Porkensioner on Rob Edward's engine, when I assembled it. Got completely stumped, without any solution to be had, when attempting to set the cam timing. The cam belt was way, way, way too loose. According to Ken, the Porkensioner is looser when the engine is not running but gets much tighter when the engine is running.
I'm way more precise that a Porkensioner could ever be, when I'm building an engine.
I'm way more precise that a Porkensioner could ever be, when I'm building an engine.
Sad that an average Jane with a PKT and PK32V'r can set the cam timing repeatably, faster and more accurately than you. Plus advance or retard ±9° to boot!
Don't use the PKT, then? Duh?
Use the factory tensioning system, which, BTW, you don't know if, and don't have any measurements to prove, actually does compensate for engine temp or dampens much if at all, especially at the high stock 32V tension level.
05-20-2014 | 02:13 AM
#50
Shameful Thread Killer
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 19,831
Likes: 101
From: Rep of Texas, N NM, Rockies, SoCal
What I would like is for everyone to have the same information, and to be able to discuss the PKT just like we discuss any other part or system on these cars. I appreciate that you are satisfied with the design and the changes, but the whole point of an open discussion is to allow everyone to contribute. And preferably without being insulted.
.
.
Once the revision is offered, you are then welcome to check it, install or not install, but you have been, and will be notified when the design engineer decides it's time to publicize any new versions. That's the way pros do it, and I would expect nothing less from the PorKen shop.
(I do not own, nor do I market any PorKen products, and I am not a paid advisor)
05-20-2014 | 10:48 AM
#51
Basic Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,843
Likes: 900
From: Double Oak, TX
Roger....you are stepping a bit farther than I think you should, here....with a completely inaccurate comparison. And your attack is pissing me off.
I never questioned your actions in overcoming the issue so why would you question how Laso dealt with there's. Laso WILL and DOES replace the WP if within the warranty period (2 years or 24 thousand miles). Just like you did. Neither you or Laso are responsible for the labor to replace the hose/WP or compensate the user for the time and trouble incurred. So no difference between what you did and what Laso does - so a direct honest comparison - WHY DO YOU BELEIVE YOUR ACTIONS WERE DIFFERENT????
Ken did exactly what you did and what Laso did. He replaced the complete PKensioner system with a new one on Jim Mayzurk's car even though the system was a number of years old and into the second iteration of the TB. JUST LIKE YOU DID. He did not have to do that but like you he is an honest person and did the right thing.
Ken does that?
Laso does that?
Laso does that?
PLEASE TELL ME WHY YOUR ACTIONS WERE DIFFERENT TO LASO/KEN AND WHY THAT MAKES YOU ANGRY AT ME FOR SHOWING A DIRECT COMPARISON?????
05-20-2014 | 01:26 PM
#52
Chronic Tool Dropper
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 20,506
Likes: 549
From: Bend, Oregon
Go back to your corners, and let your trainers quietly share with you the best way to escape the ring with minimum further battle damage. NO GOOD WILL COME TO ANYONE HERE IF THIS SNIPING CONTINUES.
My too sense.
My too sense.
05-20-2014 | 02:19 PM
#53
Archive Gatekeeper
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 17,713
Likes: 2,881
From: Irvine, CA
Hmm. In no particular order:
Porsche and their suppliers bulit 60,000 928's. Some small percentage of parts had issues.
Roger has sold 100s of thousands of 928 parts. Some small percentage of those parts have had issues.
Mark has sold 100s of thousands of 928 parts. Some small percentage of those parts have had issues.
DR has sold 100s of thousands of 928 parts. Some small percentage of those parts have had issues.
Ken has sold 100's of PKTs, plus many other cool 928 bits. Some small percentage of those parts have had issues.
Greg has assembled 1000's of fuel lines, built 100's of engines, and many other cool 928 bits. Some small percentage of those parts have had issues.
All I can discern from this discussion is that A) the only person that NEVER has issues is the guy that sits on his *** and doesn't _do_ anything. No one ever built a wear/maintenance item car part in volume that didn't fail at some (ideally very small) rate. So why are we beating each other up over this impossible standard of perfection?
Porsche and their suppliers bulit 60,000 928's. Some small percentage of parts had issues.
Roger has sold 100s of thousands of 928 parts. Some small percentage of those parts have had issues.
Mark has sold 100s of thousands of 928 parts. Some small percentage of those parts have had issues.
DR has sold 100s of thousands of 928 parts. Some small percentage of those parts have had issues.
Ken has sold 100's of PKTs, plus many other cool 928 bits. Some small percentage of those parts have had issues.
Greg has assembled 1000's of fuel lines, built 100's of engines, and many other cool 928 bits. Some small percentage of those parts have had issues.
All I can discern from this discussion is that A) the only person that NEVER has issues is the guy that sits on his *** and doesn't _do_ anything. No one ever built a wear/maintenance item car part in volume that didn't fail at some (ideally very small) rate. So why are we beating each other up over this impossible standard of perfection?
05-20-2014 | 02:49 PM
#54
Basic Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,843
Likes: 900
From: Double Oak, TX
Dr Bob & Rob,
You are right and I have retired to my corner - my apologies to the clever people (Jim C and Greg B in particular) here on Rennlist if I upset you in any way trying to get my point over - was not my intention at all.
Roger
You are right and I have retired to my corner - my apologies to the clever people (Jim C and Greg B in particular) here on Rennlist if I upset you in any way trying to get my point over - was not my intention at all.
Roger
05-20-2014 | 04:17 PM
#55
Former Vendor
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,230
Likes: 2,489
From: Anaheim
You were told to spin the engine with the starter to equalize the belt tension.
This advice is as useless today as it was when you told me this. My engine stand doesn't have a starter motor....and the flywheel is installed after the engine is removed from the stand.
How can you set the timing without pumping up the followers, anyway?
This statement alone, tells me how much you know about these engines. When you set the cam timing, you put the indicator on the lifter, not on the valve. Whether or not the lifter is pumped up is a completely moot point.
Sad that an average Jane with a PKT and PK32V'r can set the cam timing repeatably, faster and more accurately than you. Plus advance or retard ±9° to boot!
Sadder that they think your cam timing tool is that accurate....it's simply a "gross way" to set the cam timing. I've compared dozens of engines using the factory Porsche method and then used your "tool". Depending on the tolerances of when the cams were ground, your "tool" is anywhere from dead on to plus or minus 4 degrees....sometimes more. The fact that you've calibrated it in 1/2 degree marks is absolutely hilarious. That's like filling a 55 gallon drum with five gallon buckets and then quoting how much is in the barrel in tablespoons.
Don't use the PKT, then? Duh?
I do use it. I set the cam timing on new engines with a dial indicator on the lifter and a degree wheel. Once the cam timing is perfect, I install your tool and then record what your tool says....which will be off anywhere from -4 to +4 off of the factory setting, depending on the individual camshaft. This enables me to make any "future" cam timing changes (if needed) using your tool. Eliminates the need to take the cam cover off, if the cam timing needs to be reset.
Your mistake in making this tool is that you made the assumption that all the cams were ground exactly off of the "keyway" groove. If this was the case, Porsche would have had absolutely no reason to make the large adjustment windows in the cam sprockets. They could have made all the gears exactly the same (which they are) put a solid, non adjustable, key in the cam, and made the whole thing completely idiot proof. The cams are close, but they vary -4 to +4 degrees. Again, your calibration of 1/2 a degree is a joke. You could mark your tool every two degrees and be as accurate as you are, right now.
Use the factory tensioning system, which, BTW, you don't know if, and don't have any measurements to prove, actually does compensate for engine temp or dampens much if at all, especially at the high stock 32V tension level.
Again....this is the second time in this thread I've said this.....I did not design the stock tensioner system. Porsche did. There is absolutely zero reason for me to know this information....they did the research for me.
I do expect that if someone "invents" something to replace a stock part, for them to do basic measurements and calculations. The Audi tensioner works in an Audi....which has completely different angles and leverages to achieve the correct tension, than your unit does....yet you ignored all of this technical stuff and have no idea of how much tension the belt actually has.
Good golly" it seems to work, lets' sell it, doesn't cut it for me!
This advice is as useless today as it was when you told me this. My engine stand doesn't have a starter motor....and the flywheel is installed after the engine is removed from the stand.
How can you set the timing without pumping up the followers, anyway?
This statement alone, tells me how much you know about these engines. When you set the cam timing, you put the indicator on the lifter, not on the valve. Whether or not the lifter is pumped up is a completely moot point.
Sad that an average Jane with a PKT and PK32V'r can set the cam timing repeatably, faster and more accurately than you. Plus advance or retard ±9° to boot!
Sadder that they think your cam timing tool is that accurate....it's simply a "gross way" to set the cam timing. I've compared dozens of engines using the factory Porsche method and then used your "tool". Depending on the tolerances of when the cams were ground, your "tool" is anywhere from dead on to plus or minus 4 degrees....sometimes more. The fact that you've calibrated it in 1/2 degree marks is absolutely hilarious. That's like filling a 55 gallon drum with five gallon buckets and then quoting how much is in the barrel in tablespoons.
Don't use the PKT, then? Duh?
I do use it. I set the cam timing on new engines with a dial indicator on the lifter and a degree wheel. Once the cam timing is perfect, I install your tool and then record what your tool says....which will be off anywhere from -4 to +4 off of the factory setting, depending on the individual camshaft. This enables me to make any "future" cam timing changes (if needed) using your tool. Eliminates the need to take the cam cover off, if the cam timing needs to be reset.
Your mistake in making this tool is that you made the assumption that all the cams were ground exactly off of the "keyway" groove. If this was the case, Porsche would have had absolutely no reason to make the large adjustment windows in the cam sprockets. They could have made all the gears exactly the same (which they are) put a solid, non adjustable, key in the cam, and made the whole thing completely idiot proof. The cams are close, but they vary -4 to +4 degrees. Again, your calibration of 1/2 a degree is a joke. You could mark your tool every two degrees and be as accurate as you are, right now.
Use the factory tensioning system, which, BTW, you don't know if, and don't have any measurements to prove, actually does compensate for engine temp or dampens much if at all, especially at the high stock 32V tension level.
Again....this is the second time in this thread I've said this.....I did not design the stock tensioner system. Porsche did. There is absolutely zero reason for me to know this information....they did the research for me.
I do expect that if someone "invents" something to replace a stock part, for them to do basic measurements and calculations. The Audi tensioner works in an Audi....which has completely different angles and leverages to achieve the correct tension, than your unit does....yet you ignored all of this technical stuff and have no idea of how much tension the belt actually has.
Good golly" it seems to work, lets' sell it, doesn't cut it for me!
If you'd stop for 5 minutes and not just try to be a smart ***, you might learn something!
Last edited by GregBBRD; 05-20-2014 at 05:29 PM.
05-20-2014 | 05:18 PM
#56
Former Vendor
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,230
Likes: 2,489
From: Anaheim
Why?? It was a simple comparison to your statement about Laso - the truth should never get you upset.
I never questioned your actions in overcoming the issue so why would you question how Laso dealt with there's. Laso WILL and DOES replace the WP if within the warranty period (2 years or 24 thousand miles). Just like you did. Neither you or Laso are responsible for the labor to replace the hose/WP or compensate the user for the time and trouble incurred. So no difference between what you did and what Laso does - so a direct honest comparison - WHY DO YOU BELEIVE YOUR ACTIONS WERE DIFFERENT????
Ken did exactly what you did and what Laso did. He replaced the complete PKensioner system with a new one on Jim Mayzurk's car even though the system was a number of years old and into the second iteration of the TB. JUST LIKE YOU DID. He did not have to do that but like you he is an honest person and did the right thing.
PRETTY CLEARLY THEY DO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PLEASE TELL ME WHY YOUR ACTIONS WERE DIFFERENT TO LASO/KEN AND WHY THAT MAKES YOU ANGRY AT ME FOR SHOWING A DIRECT COMPARISON?????
I never questioned your actions in overcoming the issue so why would you question how Laso dealt with there's. Laso WILL and DOES replace the WP if within the warranty period (2 years or 24 thousand miles). Just like you did. Neither you or Laso are responsible for the labor to replace the hose/WP or compensate the user for the time and trouble incurred. So no difference between what you did and what Laso does - so a direct honest comparison - WHY DO YOU BELEIVE YOUR ACTIONS WERE DIFFERENT????
Ken did exactly what you did and what Laso did. He replaced the complete PKensioner system with a new one on Jim Mayzurk's car even though the system was a number of years old and into the second iteration of the TB. JUST LIKE YOU DID. He did not have to do that but like you he is an honest person and did the right thing.
PRETTY CLEARLY THEY DO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PLEASE TELL ME WHY YOUR ACTIONS WERE DIFFERENT TO LASO/KEN AND WHY THAT MAKES YOU ANGRY AT ME FOR SHOWING A DIRECT COMPARISON?????
Ken made the pieces, himself.
I've removed 4 "early LASO" water pumps, with less than 10,000 miles on them, in the last month, alone. Customer paid for the new pump and the labor.
Laso made the water pumps, themselves.
Everyone that has had one of my "early" fuel hoses leak got not only the one hose replaced, but they also got the hose that wasn't leaking replaced.....I'm taking no chances.
I neither made the fittings, nor the hose.
If you can't tell the difference between those three situations....I'd be really surprised.....I thought you to be a better man than that.
05-20-2014 | 10:37 PM
#58
Inventor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 10,177
Likes: 412
Just when I thought I was out... they pull me back in.
I was going to let this thread rest, but somebody apparently found an even larger shovel to dig with.
There is so much wrong in post #55, it's going to take a mini-novella to right it. At least a day...
Epic.
There is so much wrong in post #55, it's going to take a mini-novella to right it. At least a day...
Epic.
05-20-2014 | 10:51 PM
#59
Basic Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,843
Likes: 900
From: Double Oak, TX
Pretty clearly, Jim Corenman still has his "experimental" Porkensioner.....without a satisfactory exchange.
Ken made the pieces, himself.
I've removed 4 "early LASO" water pumps, with less than 10,000 miles on them, in the last month, alone. Customer paid for the new pump and the labor.
Laso made the water pumps, themselves.
Everyone that has had one of my "early" fuel hoses leak got not only the one hose replaced, but they also got the hose that wasn't leaking replaced.....I'm taking no chances.
I neither made the fittings, nor the hose.
If you can't tell the difference between those three situations....I'd be really surprised.....I thought you to be a better man than that.
Ken made the pieces, himself.
I've removed 4 "early LASO" water pumps, with less than 10,000 miles on them, in the last month, alone. Customer paid for the new pump and the labor.
Laso made the water pumps, themselves.
Everyone that has had one of my "early" fuel hoses leak got not only the one hose replaced, but they also got the hose that wasn't leaking replaced.....I'm taking no chances.
I neither made the fittings, nor the hose.
If you can't tell the difference between those three situations....I'd be really surprised.....I thought you to be a better man than that.
__________________
05-20-2014 | 10:52 PM
#60
Rennlist Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 35,700
Likes: 503
Wow, I just clicked on this thread and wish I hadn't.
WTF are you guys doing to each other? I had a huge post ready to click in and decided it was just not worth it, sometimes we are our own worst enemies.
WTF are you guys doing to each other? I had a huge post ready to click in and decided it was just not worth it, sometimes we are our own worst enemies.