Supercharger/ignition timing questions
08-26-2013, 04:06 PM
#31
Former Vendor
Greg, I had made the same mistake, when making my harness for my 85 supercharged car, of swapping the idle switch and air control valve and it shorted the controller in the ecu and I had to send the ecu to John Speake and he replaced it for me. I accidently did it again just last month and same thing happend and that ecu is on its way back to John again. Both times the idle control motor opened all the way and stayed that way so I had a runaway engine. By restricting the bypass hose I could get the car to idle and was usable until I had it fixed.
As far as fueling, I use the 044 fuel pump wired as per your directions in a past thread, 36lbs. injectors with an S-4 fuel regulator and SuperMaf with special bin file for 85 SuperMaf and 36lbs. injector applications, and of course SharkTuning. I use stock EZK timing as it is quite conservative and I control the ignition with a Vampire box from J&S SafeGuard out there in Cali. It has adjustability for individual cylinder retard or total retard and has a boost sensor that also allows you to program retard per lbs. of boost. It also comes with a knock sensor and will also control timing based on it. This unit is a beautifukl thing and allows me to stand on it with no fear of blowing up.
Of course I am only running 10lbs of boost but with a stock 85 engine.
Ed
As far as fueling, I use the 044 fuel pump wired as per your directions in a past thread, 36lbs. injectors with an S-4 fuel regulator and SuperMaf with special bin file for 85 SuperMaf and 36lbs. injector applications, and of course SharkTuning. I use stock EZK timing as it is quite conservative and I control the ignition with a Vampire box from J&S SafeGuard out there in Cali. It has adjustability for individual cylinder retard or total retard and has a boost sensor that also allows you to program retard per lbs. of boost. It also comes with a knock sensor and will also control timing based on it. This unit is a beautifukl thing and allows me to stand on it with no fear of blowing up.
Of course I am only running 10lbs of boost but with a stock 85 engine.
Ed
08-26-2013, 04:13 PM
#33
Former Vendor
Thread Starter
Greg, I had made the same mistake, when making my harness for my 85 supercharged car, of swapping the idle switch and air control valve and it shorted the controller in the ecu and I had to send the ecu to John Speake and he replaced it for me. I accidently did it again just last month and same thing happend and that ecu is on its way back to John again. Both times the idle control motor opened all the way and stayed that way so I had a runaway engine. By restricting the bypass hose I could get the car to idle and was usable until I had it fixed.
As far as fueling, I use the 044 fuel pump wired as per your directions in a past thread, 36lbs. injectors with an S-4 fuel regulator and SuperMaf with special bin file for 85 SuperMaf and 36lbs. injector applications, and of course SharkTuning. I use stock EZK timing as it is quite conservative and I control the ignition with a Vampire box from J&S SafeGuard out there in Cali. It has adjustability for individual cylinder retard or total retard and has a boost sensor that also allows you to program retard per lbs. of boost. It also comes with a knock sensor and will also control timing based on it. This unit is a beautifukl thing and allows me to stand on it with no fear of blowing up.
Of course I am only running 10lbs of boost but with a stock 85 engine.
Ed
As far as fueling, I use the 044 fuel pump wired as per your directions in a past thread, 36lbs. injectors with an S-4 fuel regulator and SuperMaf with special bin file for 85 SuperMaf and 36lbs. injector applications, and of course SharkTuning. I use stock EZK timing as it is quite conservative and I control the ignition with a Vampire box from J&S SafeGuard out there in Cali. It has adjustability for individual cylinder retard or total retard and has a boost sensor that also allows you to program retard per lbs. of boost. It also comes with a knock sensor and will also control timing based on it. This unit is a beautifukl thing and allows me to stand on it with no fear of blowing up.
Of course I am only running 10lbs of boost but with a stock 85 engine.
Ed
Very helpful!
When I swapped the two harness plugs back, I had a "run-away" idle and although I had "cruise" and full throttle detection......I had no idle detection.....that was late Friday afternoon.
We came in, this morning, and figured out that someone had opened up the throttle butterfly to compensate for the lack of an idle stabilizer. We are adjusting that.
I will check to see if the LH is shorted and has the idle stabilizer stuck open.
Thanks....I think you just saved a customer a few hours of head scratching and tracing.
08-26-2013, 04:37 PM
#34
Former Vendor
Thread Starter
Keep in mind that I live in California, where if you change the heat range in the spark plugs, you are violating state law.....
Almost all of my stroker engines are for vehicles that are not in California, but it sure feels good when the emission numbers are virtually zeros....all the way across the page and people rave that their fuel mileage has increased by 25%.
I grew up in the 1960's, when engines were allowed to virtually "drip fuel" out of the tailpipes. If you follow one of these "classic" vehicles around, today, it becomes really obvious, really quickly, why emission laws were required. They stink!
These supercharged things probably make good power....but the emission numbers have to be absolutely gross. Hell, the valve covers are vented to atmosphere....the last time that was "Federally" legal was 1956! 1957 vehicles had to have a closed crankcase! This stinks....they also stink!
Certainly my "stoker" engines are uber hot rods and because they are naturally aspirated, they will probably "run" with almost any of these supercharged cars.....but they are very, very clean. Actually, much cleaner than any "stock" 928.
Makes me feel like I'm doing my part. I don't want to be a part of making the environment worse, because I build fast cars.
Building really fast cars that are super clean makes me feel good about what I do.
08-26-2013, 05:02 PM
#36
Nordschleife Master
You are of course correct that almost any engine modification to a California registered and driven car is illegal. I don't think they have found the right balance there between restricting pollution where it's cheap and has a large impact and not so much in areas where it's expensive and would have a small impact. If I were running your government, you'd just pay a bigger annual fee based on worse tailpipe readings.
The emissions issue is interesting. I would bet that we can get a turbo 928 to run with lower emissions than a normally aspirated car, for the same level of power and the same level of tuning ability by the builder. That doesn't mean that my turbo car or the supercharged car that is the topic of this thread is currently tuned to minimize emissions, just talking about it in principle.
The reasons why I think that in principle turbocharged 928 could be made to run cleaner:
- For the same power, I can run less overlap with the cams. Less overlap means less unburned hydrocarbons in the pre-cat exhaust. 500 rwhp is not a problem with stock cams for a turbo car. You have more perspective on this, but it's my understanding that one need some overlap in the cams to get that power normally aspirated even with larger displacement.
- The burn completes better in the turbo car because the exhaust manifold has a high temperature and pressure (but not too high to produce other pollutants).
- A turbocharged car can be vented in a closed system, too. Under vacuum, to the intake manifold. Under boost, to the compressor inlet.
- Overall fuel efficiency will be higher on a turbo car, because some of the exhaust energy is captured by the turbocharger
Are there any factors that would point towards a naturally aspirated 928 producing lower emissions, hp for hp?
The emissions issue is interesting. I would bet that we can get a turbo 928 to run with lower emissions than a normally aspirated car, for the same level of power and the same level of tuning ability by the builder. That doesn't mean that my turbo car or the supercharged car that is the topic of this thread is currently tuned to minimize emissions, just talking about it in principle.
The reasons why I think that in principle turbocharged 928 could be made to run cleaner:
- For the same power, I can run less overlap with the cams. Less overlap means less unburned hydrocarbons in the pre-cat exhaust. 500 rwhp is not a problem with stock cams for a turbo car. You have more perspective on this, but it's my understanding that one need some overlap in the cams to get that power normally aspirated even with larger displacement.
- The burn completes better in the turbo car because the exhaust manifold has a high temperature and pressure (but not too high to produce other pollutants).
- A turbocharged car can be vented in a closed system, too. Under vacuum, to the intake manifold. Under boost, to the compressor inlet.
- Overall fuel efficiency will be higher on a turbo car, because some of the exhaust energy is captured by the turbocharger
Are there any factors that would point towards a naturally aspirated 928 producing lower emissions, hp for hp?
Perhaps. And thanks for the offer!
Keep in mind that I live in California, where if you change the heat range in the spark plugs, you are violating state law.....
Almost all of my stroker engines are for vehicles that are not in California, but it sure feels good when the emission numbers are virtually zeros....all the way across the page and people rave that their fuel mileage has increased by 25%.
I grew up in the 1960's, when engines were allowed to virtually "drip fuel" out of the tailpipes. If you follow one of these "classic" vehicles around, today, it becomes really obvious, really quickly, why emission laws were required. They stink!
These supercharged things probably make good power....but the emission numbers have to be absolutely gross. Hell, the valve covers are vented to atmosphere....the last time that was "Federally" legal was 1956! 1957 vehicles had to have a closed crankcase! This stinks....they also stink!
Certainly my "stoker" engines are uber hot rods and because they are naturally aspirated, they will probably "run" with almost any of these supercharged cars.....but they are very, very clean. Actually, much cleaner than any "stock" 928.
Makes me feel like I'm doing my part. I don't want to be a part of making the environment worse, because I build fast cars.
Building really fast cars that are super clean makes me feel good about what I do.
Keep in mind that I live in California, where if you change the heat range in the spark plugs, you are violating state law.....
Almost all of my stroker engines are for vehicles that are not in California, but it sure feels good when the emission numbers are virtually zeros....all the way across the page and people rave that their fuel mileage has increased by 25%.
I grew up in the 1960's, when engines were allowed to virtually "drip fuel" out of the tailpipes. If you follow one of these "classic" vehicles around, today, it becomes really obvious, really quickly, why emission laws were required. They stink!
These supercharged things probably make good power....but the emission numbers have to be absolutely gross. Hell, the valve covers are vented to atmosphere....the last time that was "Federally" legal was 1956! 1957 vehicles had to have a closed crankcase! This stinks....they also stink!
Certainly my "stoker" engines are uber hot rods and because they are naturally aspirated, they will probably "run" with almost any of these supercharged cars.....but they are very, very clean. Actually, much cleaner than any "stock" 928.
Makes me feel like I'm doing my part. I don't want to be a part of making the environment worse, because I build fast cars.
Building really fast cars that are super clean makes me feel good about what I do.
08-26-2013, 05:49 PM
#37
Former Vendor
Thread Starter
You are of course correct that almost any engine modification to a California registered and driven car is illegal. I don't think they have found the right balance there between restricting pollution where it's cheap and has a large impact and not so much in areas where it's expensive and would have a small impact. If I were running your government, you'd just pay a bigger annual fee based on worse tailpipe readings.
The emissions issue is interesting. I would bet that we can get a turbo 928 to run with lower emissions than a normally aspirated car, for the same level of power and the same level of tuning ability by the builder. That doesn't mean that my turbo car or the supercharged car that is the topic of this thread is currently tuned to minimize emissions, just talking about it in principle.
The reasons why I think that in principle turbocharged 928 could be made to run cleaner:
- For the same power, I can run less overlap with the cams. Less overlap means less unburned hydrocarbons in the pre-cat exhaust. 500 rwhp is not a problem with stock cams for a turbo car. You have more perspective on this, but it's my understanding that one need some overlap in the cams to get that power normally aspirated even with larger displacement.
- The burn completes better in the turbo car because the exhaust manifold has a high temperature and pressure (but not too high to produce other pollutants).
- A turbocharged car can be vented in a closed system, too. Under vacuum, to the intake manifold. Under boost, to the compressor inlet.
- Overall fuel efficiency will be higher on a turbo car, because some of the exhaust energy is captured by the turbocharger
Are there any factors that would point towards a naturally aspirated 928 producing lower emissions, hp for hp?
The emissions issue is interesting. I would bet that we can get a turbo 928 to run with lower emissions than a normally aspirated car, for the same level of power and the same level of tuning ability by the builder. That doesn't mean that my turbo car or the supercharged car that is the topic of this thread is currently tuned to minimize emissions, just talking about it in principle.
The reasons why I think that in principle turbocharged 928 could be made to run cleaner:
- For the same power, I can run less overlap with the cams. Less overlap means less unburned hydrocarbons in the pre-cat exhaust. 500 rwhp is not a problem with stock cams for a turbo car. You have more perspective on this, but it's my understanding that one need some overlap in the cams to get that power normally aspirated even with larger displacement.
- The burn completes better in the turbo car because the exhaust manifold has a high temperature and pressure (but not too high to produce other pollutants).
- A turbocharged car can be vented in a closed system, too. Under vacuum, to the intake manifold. Under boost, to the compressor inlet.
- Overall fuel efficiency will be higher on a turbo car, because some of the exhaust energy is captured by the turbocharger
Are there any factors that would point towards a naturally aspirated 928 producing lower emissions, hp for hp?
There's country mile between what I've seen for supercharged 928's and those vehicles, however. (The only Turbocharged one I ever saw had broken pistons and I converted it back to stock......after fixing the engine.)
08-26-2013, 06:03 PM
#38
Rennlist Member
If I was single I'd quit my job and come beg Greg for a job just to be a sponge and learn from him.
08-26-2013, 06:32 PM
#39
Former Vendor
Thread Starter
Greg, I had made the same mistake, when making my harness for my 85 supercharged car, of swapping the idle switch and air control valve and it shorted the controller in the ecu and I had to send the ecu to John Speake and he replaced it for me. I accidently did it again just last month and same thing happend and that ecu is on its way back to John again. Both times the idle control motor opened all the way and stayed that way so I had a runaway engine. By restricting the bypass hose I could get the car to idle and was usable until I had it fixed.
As far as fueling, I use the 044 fuel pump wired as per your directions in a past thread, 36lbs. injectors with an S-4 fuel regulator and SuperMaf with special bin file for 85 SuperMaf and 36lbs. injector applications, and of course SharkTuning. I use stock EZK timing as it is quite conservative and I control the ignition with a Vampire box from J&S SafeGuard out there in Cali. It has adjustability for individual cylinder retard or total retard and has a boost sensor that also allows you to program retard per lbs. of boost. It also comes with a knock sensor and will also control timing based on it. This unit is a beautifukl thing and allows me to stand on it with no fear of blowing up.
Of course I am only running 10lbs of boost but with a stock 85 engine.
Ed
As far as fueling, I use the 044 fuel pump wired as per your directions in a past thread, 36lbs. injectors with an S-4 fuel regulator and SuperMaf with special bin file for 85 SuperMaf and 36lbs. injector applications, and of course SharkTuning. I use stock EZK timing as it is quite conservative and I control the ignition with a Vampire box from J&S SafeGuard out there in Cali. It has adjustability for individual cylinder retard or total retard and has a boost sensor that also allows you to program retard per lbs. of boost. It also comes with a knock sensor and will also control timing based on it. This unit is a beautifukl thing and allows me to stand on it with no fear of blowing up.
Of course I am only running 10lbs of boost but with a stock 85 engine.
Ed
Thanks, Ed!
08-26-2013, 07:15 PM
#40
Rennlist Member
08-26-2013, 08:55 PM
#41
Drifting
My 630rwhp 89' passes Utah emissions very easily, it's essentially stock until you close the BOV and better tuned. If it were not for the numbers watching Cali "big brother" I'm certain it would pass there too. (it has my 100cpi cats installed)
It's very easy to route the cam cover breathers to the intake prior to the supercharger as long as your oil control is under control.
It's very easy to route the cam cover breathers to the intake prior to the supercharger as long as your oil control is under control.
08-26-2013, 09:23 PM
#42
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I Just saw this thread and am a little late to the party, so I will keep the comments sort and sweet as it sounds like you have gotten a ton of great info already!!
I remember seeing this car at Sharktober last year. It was cool and a mess at the same time.
It sounds like Murf has the easiest and simplest way and can get you very close. Other wise you would need a supermaf and a lot of tuning to correctly deal with that much boost. And if it really has that much boost, I sure hope it's not 10:1
+1 on the current injectors and fuel pump being way too small!! and if it runs 19psi its going to max 42lbs also.
If you can put in a 2 bar EZF, I think that would be a great Idea also.
Lastly... IMO... that car is NEVER going to pass California's CARB emissions without cheating somehow!!
I remember seeing this car at Sharktober last year. It was cool and a mess at the same time.
It sounds like Murf has the easiest and simplest way and can get you very close. Other wise you would need a supermaf and a lot of tuning to correctly deal with that much boost. And if it really has that much boost, I sure hope it's not 10:1
+1 on the current injectors and fuel pump being way too small!! and if it runs 19psi its going to max 42lbs also.
If you can put in a 2 bar EZF, I think that would be a great Idea also.
Lastly... IMO... that car is NEVER going to pass California's CARB emissions without cheating somehow!!
08-26-2013, 09:33 PM
#43
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I am running a stock 89' 5.0 (with thicker .074 cometic headgaskets) using 42# injectors and the Super FMU with a 7-1 disk. At 15.5psi it turns 630rwhp with an auto. I don't pull any ignition at all and experience no knocks while maintaining a 12.5/1 afr at full boost. Granted, that's at 4400' altitude which does help a bit. BTW, this is being revamped due to 120ish psi fuel pressure at full boost. I built this one before the availability of a sharktuner. It actually idles great at just under 30psi static with 42# injectors.
I'm willing to bet that you are nowhere near 19psi as I am running the largest counter rotating straight outlet Vortech they make (V7Ysi) on this setup and it's maxed out at 15.5psi on a lowly 5.0 (once again at this altitude). I doubt that it is using the V7Ysi as I had to do a lot of "relocating" to fit this one. Let me know what model Vortech you are using, the pulley size and if you can find the disk size in the "great big blue" regulator (probably a Vortech Super FMU) and I can give you some help making it right.
A properly tuned 6.0 at 19psi should theoretically be in excess of 800rwhp, a nice ride for sure. I'm maxing out an 044 pump at these levels so the fuel system would have to be even more stout.
I'm willing to bet that you are nowhere near 19psi as I am running the largest counter rotating straight outlet Vortech they make (V7Ysi) on this setup and it's maxed out at 15.5psi on a lowly 5.0 (once again at this altitude). I doubt that it is using the V7Ysi as I had to do a lot of "relocating" to fit this one. Let me know what model Vortech you are using, the pulley size and if you can find the disk size in the "great big blue" regulator (probably a Vortech Super FMU) and I can give you some help making it right.
A properly tuned 6.0 at 19psi should theoretically be in excess of 800rwhp, a nice ride for sure. I'm maxing out an 044 pump at these levels so the fuel system would have to be even more stout.
If your using stock ignition maps at 15.5 psi, with 12.5/1 AF, and getting zero knocks on a stock 89 engine,that is awesome. What do you think your compression ratio is with the .074 gasket? It must have lowered it some to do that.
08-26-2013, 10:01 PM
#44
Former Vendor
Thread Starter
I Just saw this thread and am a little late to the party, so I will keep the comments sort and sweet as it sounds like you have gotten a ton of great info already!!
I remember seeing this car at Sharktober last year. It was cool and a mess at the same time.
It sounds like Murf has the easiest and simplest way and can get you very close. Other wise you would need a supermaf and a lot of tuning to correctly deal with that much boost. And if it really has that much boost, I sure hope it's not 10:1
+1 on the current injectors and fuel pump being way too small!! and if it runs 19psi its going to max 42lbs also.
If you can put in a 2 bar EZF, I think that would be a great Idea also.
Lastly... IMO... that car is NEVER going to pass California's CARB emissions without cheating somehow!!
I remember seeing this car at Sharktober last year. It was cool and a mess at the same time.
It sounds like Murf has the easiest and simplest way and can get you very close. Other wise you would need a supermaf and a lot of tuning to correctly deal with that much boost. And if it really has that much boost, I sure hope it's not 10:1
+1 on the current injectors and fuel pump being way too small!! and if it runs 19psi its going to max 42lbs also.
If you can put in a 2 bar EZF, I think that would be a great Idea also.
Lastly... IMO... that car is NEVER going to pass California's CARB emissions without cheating somehow!!
The "highest" compression reading we took was 150lbs., with all others being slightly lower than this....so I'm guessing that the compression is about 8 to 1.
And yes, not very easy to get through a smog inspection in California....however, there are a few counties that have no smog testing required....no one even looks. Could easily be registered in one of those counties.
08-26-2013, 10:20 PM
#45
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According to what I've been told, this engine has 944 Turbo pistons.
The "highest" compression reading we took was 150lbs., with all others being slightly lower than this....so I'm guessing that the compression is about 8 to 1.
And yes, not very easy to get through a smog inspection in California....however, there are a few counties that have no smog testing required....no one even looks. Could easily be registered in one of those counties.
The "highest" compression reading we took was 150lbs., with all others being slightly lower than this....so I'm guessing that the compression is about 8 to 1.
And yes, not very easy to get through a smog inspection in California....however, there are a few counties that have no smog testing required....no one even looks. Could easily be registered in one of those counties.
First, I wonder how that would affect the tuning if you went with Murfs setup?
Second, once you get the air fuel correct across the board, you may not have to cut timing with that compression. But you will need some kind knock sensing system to find out. But of course you really shouldn't try to tune the upper ends of the maps without some kind of knock detection.
So it sounds to me like that needs to be somewhere on the top of the purchase list.