The true costs of a 4k S4
08-09-2012, 01:06 PM
#16
Burning Brakes
I can relate. I've stopped adding when I passed 10K. The wife luckily has been very good about it. Still have to fix heat (no heat), replace stereo plus speakers, put on front spoiler that I bought (missing when bought), blah, blah, blah 
However it's a keeper!
However it's a keeper!
08-09-2012, 05:11 PM
#17
Drifting
I am still trying to spend more on the car then on Deb but I am betting that I will never get to that point. I am just hoping that some day they will give me the ride ov my life
08-09-2012, 05:40 PM
#18
Former Sponsor
I purchased a 1990 S4 in 2010 for US$4k, it was driveable but had, no AC, a whinning steering pump, other issues I have only since learnt about on here and bad paint. An after and before picture attached.
Roll on two years and learning so much the car is now becoming a reliable daily drive, 90% of things now work and all the previous dodgy fixes retified. All the work has been done 50/50 between myself and garage mechanics.
Costs to date excluding purchase price US$18,124.19 !!!
I think it is time to delete that damn spreadsheet and go for a drive!
Roll on two years and learning so much the car is now becoming a reliable daily drive, 90% of things now work and all the previous dodgy fixes retified. All the work has been done 50/50 between myself and garage mechanics.
Costs to date excluding purchase price US$18,124.19 !!!
I think it is time to delete that damn spreadsheet and go for a drive!
There was a point in time where one could buy 356SC models for under 2K, also! This, as will be the case with the 928, was "fixed" as demand outstripped the amount of available vehicles.
Think how much better than would sound if you'd bought the car for $100,000 and only had to put $18K into it!
Last edited by GregBBRD; 08-09-2012 at 06:04 PM.
08-09-2012, 07:22 PM
#19
Race Car
This is the problem when a $80,000 car drops to a very low resale value.
There was a point in time where one could buy 356SC models for under 2K, also! This, as will be the case with the 928, was "fixed" as demand outstripped the amount of available vehicles.
Think how much better than would sound if you'd bought the car for $100,000 and only had to put $18K into it!
There was a point in time where one could buy 356SC models for under 2K, also! This, as will be the case with the 928, was "fixed" as demand outstripped the amount of available vehicles.
Think how much better than would sound if you'd bought the car for $100,000 and only had to put $18K into it!
Problem is many late model sport and luxury cars have also bottomed out badly.
Someone at work said to me-if you need to put work in it, why not buy a newer Porsche. I said I will in the future when I can get a PDK 911 C4 Cab or Panamera (for the wife) but that I love the 928 design, shape, ride and handling.
I could spend 3 times as much as I did, get a pretty pristine car but still have to spend exactly what I've spent, or more, to get it all in order because thing are going to break.
08-09-2012, 09:52 PM
#21
Instructor
Same boat, same story. I don't have as much time as I would like so spend more having other people do it (thx Greg for the just completed excellent top end refresh) which costs more $.
My wife just asked me if it will be worth a lot when I sell it. I smiled and nodded.... but then I have no plan to ever sell it so who knows, it could be true if it finally comes to it.
At the end of the day the exclusivity of being a part of the 928 community and seeing heads turn when driving a well maintained 928 is worth the price of admission in my book!
My wife just asked me if it will be worth a lot when I sell it. I smiled and nodded.... but then I have no plan to ever sell it so who knows, it could be true if it finally comes to it.
At the end of the day the exclusivity of being a part of the 928 community and seeing heads turn when driving a well maintained 928 is worth the price of admission in my book!
08-09-2012, 10:40 PM
#22
Under the Lift
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The PO kept perfect records and had dealer service for the first 10 years, spending $7500 during that time, mostly on small items with the most expensive item being $1000 for a full brake job (rotors and pads). Nothing serious has ever gone wrong with the car, although I spent $1100 on a Porsche rebuilt LH (before other rebuilts were offered). The torque tube is original, etc. It's been one helluva car for me at $16K purchase and about $12K in repairs, maintenance and disposables. In 175K miles over 13 years I've done a number of timing belts, oil changes, and tire changes.
08-10-2012, 11:50 AM
#24
Rennlist Member
This is the problem when a $80,000 car drops to a very low resale value.
There was a point in time where one could buy 356SC models for under 2K, also! This, as will be the case with the 928, was "fixed" as demand outstripped the amount of available vehicles.
Think how much better than would sound if you'd bought the car for $100,000 and only had to put $18K into it!
There was a point in time where one could buy 356SC models for under 2K, also! This, as will be the case with the 928, was "fixed" as demand outstripped the amount of available vehicles.
Think how much better than would sound if you'd bought the car for $100,000 and only had to put $18K into it!
If you mean 928's in plurality, I believe it's essential. Having owned and owning many 928s requires a systematic approach, esp. with a limited budget. I can look back at jobs and pull out costs, and this helps me budget for upcoming projects.
This isn't a science, but throwing down a few numbers on a piece of paper can help you set goals for how you approach a project.
A budget will help you decide how to handle WYAIT items. Should I replace with new, used, or rebuilt... or leave it be?
A budget will help you decide attack a problem. Should I rebuild the steering rack myself or buy a $550 rebuilt ZF?
A budget will help you decide when/how to DIY vs. Pro Mechanic.
Should I take the time to shop around for best price... wait for a great deal, or just get er' done?
The biggest burner. If you take the project into "just in time" everything, when you need it now... consider that critical mass. You will hemorrage money quickly.
Lastly, pick you battles wisely. Nothing worse than getting overwhelmed with the the car and money. If you find yourself at critical mass, step away for awhile to regroup. Seek help from the list, then reapproach the car with a revised gameplan.
As you can see, this all has much less to do with cost and expense, and more to do with proper planning.
08-10-2012, 12:00 PM
#25
Chronic Tool Dropper
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Totalling just his dealer receipts, and counting his purchase cost minus my purchase cost, but not counting incidentals like fuel and insurance, it cost him somewhere north of $7/mile to own the car. In contrast, it "only" works out to about $2/mile all in for the time I've owned it. So long as I ignore the 'support' time dedicated to the car, which I write off as therapy, it's a bargain compared with other interesting cars I've owned.
08-10-2012, 12:11 PM
#26
Vegas, Baby!
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A 928 is cheap compared to a Pantera. Both are old and expensive, just different areas of expence, to keep them well maintaned. Both are a hoot to drive! I don't even really care what they cost, I buy what I need when I need to, and save when I'm short on cash.They'll wait patiently in the garage, never complaining. The only down side is having to many toys, and not enough money.
08-10-2012, 12:44 PM
#27
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Greg B and Jim D both have great points. I've been preaching for years that the fact that a reasonable used example can be had for less 20% of original sale price means nothing when it comes time to maintain the car. I'm still buying parts and services for an $80k car that happens to be almost 25 years old. It's in the flat area on a depreciation curve, yet the steepest part of its O&M curve. Net cost of driving an older under-maintained car is easily higher than what a new car costs. New 'interesting' cars come with pre-paid service plans conveniently scheduled to run out at the same time your initial lease or financing is finished. It masks the financial pain of maintenance costs by bundling them with purchase, but rapes you at the end of that lease/finance period with the huge hit on resale/market value. Of course we'd be glad to roll you into one of our new cars with another lease, and push that pain out a little bigger and little further on the treadmill...
Jim's ideas on budgeting for maintenance and choosing your battles is pretty good. On making budget-driven choices of new vs used, pretty much the only time I choose used is on cosmetic pieces that I plan to rework myself. Otherwise, I feel that the used bits attached to my car now are often in the same or better condition than the used bits that were attached to someone else's' cars. If I'm going through the effort to replace something that's worn or tired-looking, and a new part is available, I'll go with new. My 'used' parts go into the 'used originals' bin that will be passed on to the next caretaker after I pass on to my next caretaker.
Jim also touches indirectly on the costs of getting behind the curve, looking at "just in time", "barely in time", and maybe "not quite in time" maintenance strategies. Considering the value of labor time, be it your own or hired help, I can think of no reason to avoid WYAIT tasks on these cars. Planning is key, obviously, so you get to do lots of things at once, on the way in or on the way out of any major PM task. Because of the potential for serious cascade damage from any major systems failure, it seems only prudent to stay comfortably ahead of "just in time". For example, TB/WP service that won't be 'due' for another 25k miles is already on the radar for the next 12 months. Every wear part was replaced last time I did it, and the same parts will be replaced this time regardless of how "good" they look or feel. ALL the coolant hoses will go in at the same time, even that short one between the reservoir and the Y-pipe. Radiator will have a new end tank, both seals, and be cleaned. All so I don't have any worries about whether the car will get me there and back reliably. For about $1k in parts and a couple easy days of 'therapy' time, I get another 7+ years of driving peace and calm. The one after that will be the same if I last that long. By then Mark and Roger will be long retired, and there will be no GregB's left as options vs DIY. Maybe my next TB/WP will be a "lifetime" service.
Jim's ideas on budgeting for maintenance and choosing your battles is pretty good. On making budget-driven choices of new vs used, pretty much the only time I choose used is on cosmetic pieces that I plan to rework myself. Otherwise, I feel that the used bits attached to my car now are often in the same or better condition than the used bits that were attached to someone else's' cars. If I'm going through the effort to replace something that's worn or tired-looking, and a new part is available, I'll go with new. My 'used' parts go into the 'used originals' bin that will be passed on to the next caretaker after I pass on to my next caretaker.
Jim also touches indirectly on the costs of getting behind the curve, looking at "just in time", "barely in time", and maybe "not quite in time" maintenance strategies. Considering the value of labor time, be it your own or hired help, I can think of no reason to avoid WYAIT tasks on these cars. Planning is key, obviously, so you get to do lots of things at once, on the way in or on the way out of any major PM task. Because of the potential for serious cascade damage from any major systems failure, it seems only prudent to stay comfortably ahead of "just in time". For example, TB/WP service that won't be 'due' for another 25k miles is already on the radar for the next 12 months. Every wear part was replaced last time I did it, and the same parts will be replaced this time regardless of how "good" they look or feel. ALL the coolant hoses will go in at the same time, even that short one between the reservoir and the Y-pipe. Radiator will have a new end tank, both seals, and be cleaned. All so I don't have any worries about whether the car will get me there and back reliably. For about $1k in parts and a couple easy days of 'therapy' time, I get another 7+ years of driving peace and calm. The one after that will be the same if I last that long. By then Mark and Roger will be long retired, and there will be no GregB's left as options vs DIY. Maybe my next TB/WP will be a "lifetime" service.
08-10-2012, 01:01 PM
#28
Rennlist Member
Greg B and Jim D both have great points. I've been preaching for years that the fact that a reasonable used example can be had for less 20% of original sale price means nothing when it comes time to maintain the car. I'm still buying parts and services for an $80k car that happens to be almost 25 years old. It's in the flat area on a depreciation curve, yet the steepest part of its O&M curve. Net cost of driving an older under-maintained car is easily higher than what a new car costs. New 'interesting' cars come with pre-paid service plans conveniently scheduled to run out at the same time your initial lease or financing is finished. It masks the financial pain of maintenance costs by bundling them with purchase, but rapes you at the end of that lease/finance period with the huge hit on resale/market value. Of course we'd be glad to roll you into one of our new cars with another lease, and push that pain out a little bigger and little further on the treadmill...
Jim's ideas on budgeting for maintenance and choosing your battles is pretty good. On making budget-driven choices of new vs used, pretty much the only time I choose used is on cosmetic pieces that I plan to rework myself. Otherwise, I feel that the used bits attached to my car now are often in the same or better condition than the used bits that were attached to someone else's' cars. If I'm going through the effort to replace something that's worn or tired-looking, and a new part is available, I'll go with new. My 'used' parts go into the 'used originals' bin that will be passed on to the next caretaker after I pass on to my next caretaker.
Jim also touches indirectly on the costs of getting behind the curve, looking at "just in time", "barely in time", and maybe "not quite in time" maintenance strategies. Considering the value of labor time, be it your own or hired help, I can think of no reason to avoid WYAIT tasks on these cars. Planning is key, obviously, so you get to do lots of things at once, on the way in or on the way out of any major PM task. Because of the potential for serious cascade damage from any major systems failure, it seems only prudent to stay comfortably ahead of "just in time". For example, TB/WP service that won't be 'due' for another 25k miles is already on the radar for the next 12 months. Every wear part was replaced last time I did it, and the same parts will be replaced this time regardless of how "good" they look or feel. ALL the coolant hoses will go in at the same time, even that short one between the reservoir and the Y-pipe. Radiator will have a new end tank, both seals, and be cleaned. All so I don't have any worries about whether the car will get me there and back reliably. For about $1k in parts and a couple easy days of 'therapy' time, I get another 7+ years of driving peace and calm. The one after that will be the same if I last that long. By then Mark and Roger will be long retired, and there will be no GregB's left as options vs DIY. Maybe my next TB/WP will be a "lifetime" service.
Jim's ideas on budgeting for maintenance and choosing your battles is pretty good. On making budget-driven choices of new vs used, pretty much the only time I choose used is on cosmetic pieces that I plan to rework myself. Otherwise, I feel that the used bits attached to my car now are often in the same or better condition than the used bits that were attached to someone else's' cars. If I'm going through the effort to replace something that's worn or tired-looking, and a new part is available, I'll go with new. My 'used' parts go into the 'used originals' bin that will be passed on to the next caretaker after I pass on to my next caretaker.
Jim also touches indirectly on the costs of getting behind the curve, looking at "just in time", "barely in time", and maybe "not quite in time" maintenance strategies. Considering the value of labor time, be it your own or hired help, I can think of no reason to avoid WYAIT tasks on these cars. Planning is key, obviously, so you get to do lots of things at once, on the way in or on the way out of any major PM task. Because of the potential for serious cascade damage from any major systems failure, it seems only prudent to stay comfortably ahead of "just in time". For example, TB/WP service that won't be 'due' for another 25k miles is already on the radar for the next 12 months. Every wear part was replaced last time I did it, and the same parts will be replaced this time regardless of how "good" they look or feel. ALL the coolant hoses will go in at the same time, even that short one between the reservoir and the Y-pipe. Radiator will have a new end tank, both seals, and be cleaned. All so I don't have any worries about whether the car will get me there and back reliably. For about $1k in parts and a couple easy days of 'therapy' time, I get another 7+ years of driving peace and calm. The one after that will be the same if I last that long. By then Mark and Roger will be long retired, and there will be no GregB's left as options vs DIY. Maybe my next TB/WP will be a "lifetime" service.
Extreme example: Transaxle selector rob out of whack, locking it in 2nd gear. Do I pull the tranny, reset the selector (no cost, only labor)?, or do I rebuild/or have rebuilt the tranny WYAIT (higher cost, same/more labor)?
The cost of a tranny rebuild may be half of someone's entire budget. In the end, the most important thing is to get the car back on the road, IMHO.
I like your interesting twist on "just in time", from a service aspect. I believe it applies in parallel to my sentiments. It all comes down how you plan for service.
The used vs. new thing is also case-by-case. For instance, early CIS WURs are very expensive new. I would opt for replacing with known good used, or rebuilt. Same applies to the CIS fuel distributor. Keep in mind, these 2 items new alone, could exceed the purchase of an early car, and quickly blow a budget.
08-10-2012, 01:05 PM
#29
So many variables in this price.
How much of the price is catching up on maintenance vs just doing normal maintenance ? Some of those costs would be spent on ANY car.
How expensive is your shop?
At what level are you trying to maintain it? I know guys that spend thousands a year to maintain brand new cars just because they are overly **** about it. You know, the guys that repaint an entire car for one rock chip and then call the car a lemon and a money pit!
Are you including "hobby" items in there like wheels, upgrades or sportier tires?
How much of the price is catching up on maintenance vs just doing normal maintenance ? Some of those costs would be spent on ANY car.
How expensive is your shop?
At what level are you trying to maintain it? I know guys that spend thousands a year to maintain brand new cars just because they are overly **** about it. You know, the guys that repaint an entire car for one rock chip and then call the car a lemon and a money pit!
Are you including "hobby" items in there like wheels, upgrades or sportier tires?
08-10-2012, 01:06 PM
#30
So what have we learned here ? Bill Ball spends about $1,000 per year on parts and his free time over about 13 years, Dr Bob's PO spent $22,000 in 8 years on a new car.
If you are good and do your own work you might get by at $1,000 a year, if you pay Porsche prices for parts and labor it is more like $3,000 per year. As the cars get older they tend to need more fixing.
Buy one which has been neglected and you get to play catchup. If it needs 5 years of repairs best have $5,000 to $15,000 of extra cash to spend on your hobby.
There is no such thing as a cheap Porsche.
If you are good and do your own work you might get by at $1,000 a year, if you pay Porsche prices for parts and labor it is more like $3,000 per year. As the cars get older they tend to need more fixing.
Buy one which has been neglected and you get to play catchup. If it needs 5 years of repairs best have $5,000 to $15,000 of extra cash to spend on your hobby.
There is no such thing as a cheap Porsche.