TP/WP Change Scares the $^%# out of me!
05-12-2012, 01:24 PM
#17
Nordschleife Master
Best advise I can give is take your time and label everything. With the waterpump bolts do not force them. If they feel real tight coming out use the back in and back out trick and plenty of PB Blaster otherwise you could break them. There was a step by step manual on ebay that is a very good resource!
05-12-2012, 02:12 PM
#18
Rennlist Member
But as another poster pointed out, get it from the guy that wrote it (see above). Also get a Kempf tool, and be prepared for the breaker bar part (unless you can borrow a torque multiplier somewhere. And that's good advice on those pump bolts.
05-12-2012, 03:09 PM
#19
Under the Lift
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What you really need is the "Timing Belt Manual for the 85/86 32-Valve Porsche 928s" by John Kelly. This is the first thing I did to my 86.5 after opening the hood, because I knew the car had been badly neglected. This manual made it relatively easy, 62 pages of step-by-step r and r. http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...ng+belt+manual
My first timing belt job took me 5 days, 3 or which were spent figuring out how to best remove a broken off thread tap (I had snapped a water pump bolt, drilled it out, then snapped a tap inside the hole). That potential nightmare ended well and that car is still ticking along well at 242K miles. I have since done dozens of timing belt jobs on many 928s and never had another broken WP bolt - there are ways to minimize the possibility, and you should observe them because I gather that water pump has been on there 100K miles and many years. So, I have some tips about that and others I have accumulated the hard way, published here:
http://billsworkshop.com/P928S4/tb/T...rces-noWSM.pdf
Although I have seen other 32 valve 928s with timing belts older than yours that were not in bad condition, you have probably caused 3 or 4 heart attacks among the members here by reporting yours is 100K miles and 20 years old...although am I misreading?...could it be 156K miles? I need to get my heart medicine pills refilled before I come back to read your answer.
05-12-2012, 06:04 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
When I found myself in this same spot with my first S4 I found my way to the 928 International web site and looked in the maint tips and links Section and discovered the timing belt changing instructions by John Pirtle written in 04 about the same S4 version of the 928. I think it will be very applicable to your 86. I printed the whole procedure out on paper and used it as an instruction and checklist of the steps as I took them. I didn't necessarily follow the steps in exact sequence, but as I did things that were ahead in the list I simply marked them off as done when I came to them.
The job took some specialized tools as I recall including a large socket to put on the crank nut on the front, together with a very short 3/4 inch drive extension for the breaker bar I used to loosen the nut and then to turn the crank at various steps. You will also need a large 3/4 inch torque wrench. Mine goes up to 600 footpounds, I think. You will also need the flywheel lock and I suggest you get the universal one. The rest is pretty much regular metric wrenches and ordinary tools.
One thing I found I had to do with both of the belt jobs I have done is to do some machine repair on the bracket that holds to two idler rollers just below the belt where it goes around the crank toothed pully. One of the two holes on it in each case was very wollowed out apparently from constant vibration, so I had to bore the hole out and press in a bronze bushing, then bore it to size for the stud it slips over on the front of the block.
I don't recalll much or anything in the 175 step instructions about the wear issue on the cam toothed pullies, so I didn't pay much attention to those. I dont recall that they appeared very worn, but next time, based on a lot of additional stuff I have seen on this forum, I will pay closer attention to them.
The instructions I used were very complete and I found only about two or three wrench callouts that were off by one size. The instructions were far better than the car I had to work on since I found that the previous job had been completed by leaving about 5 bolts out in various places. I also found that the alternator had been put back on with all the original parts in the mounting, but they were put in a really unusual configuration. I was able to get them reorganized and put back correctly.
I changed all the plugs and wires and caps and rotors in the process. It took me about a whole weekend, or the equivilant and that also included the machine work mentioned and the reseal of the tensioner. It also included the reseal of the Power steering pump. I did also find the the convex washers in the tensioner had been put back in a very helter skelter manner, so I had to do some research to figure out how they were supposed to be oriented. (Five in each direction for what the might be worth.)
The job took some specialized tools as I recall including a large socket to put on the crank nut on the front, together with a very short 3/4 inch drive extension for the breaker bar I used to loosen the nut and then to turn the crank at various steps. You will also need a large 3/4 inch torque wrench. Mine goes up to 600 footpounds, I think. You will also need the flywheel lock and I suggest you get the universal one. The rest is pretty much regular metric wrenches and ordinary tools.
One thing I found I had to do with both of the belt jobs I have done is to do some machine repair on the bracket that holds to two idler rollers just below the belt where it goes around the crank toothed pully. One of the two holes on it in each case was very wollowed out apparently from constant vibration, so I had to bore the hole out and press in a bronze bushing, then bore it to size for the stud it slips over on the front of the block.
I don't recalll much or anything in the 175 step instructions about the wear issue on the cam toothed pullies, so I didn't pay much attention to those. I dont recall that they appeared very worn, but next time, based on a lot of additional stuff I have seen on this forum, I will pay closer attention to them.
The instructions I used were very complete and I found only about two or three wrench callouts that were off by one size. The instructions were far better than the car I had to work on since I found that the previous job had been completed by leaving about 5 bolts out in various places. I also found that the alternator had been put back on with all the original parts in the mounting, but they were put in a really unusual configuration. I was able to get them reorganized and put back correctly.
I changed all the plugs and wires and caps and rotors in the process. It took me about a whole weekend, or the equivilant and that also included the machine work mentioned and the reseal of the tensioner. It also included the reseal of the Power steering pump. I did also find the the convex washers in the tensioner had been put back in a very helter skelter manner, so I had to do some research to figure out how they were supposed to be oriented. (Five in each direction for what the might be worth.)
05-12-2012, 06:05 PM
#22
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We dont want to burn you out bro. But you have a lot of experience!
But seriously the only 'special' tool you will need is a flywheel locking tool. Many 10, 12, 14, 17 mm bolts. The 22(or is it 23) mm for the Crank bolt. The rest is just 'onion' disassembly and patience.
But seriously the only 'special' tool you will need is a flywheel locking tool. Many 10, 12, 14, 17 mm bolts. The 22(or is it 23) mm for the Crank bolt. The rest is just 'onion' disassembly and patience.
05-12-2012, 07:02 PM
#24
Under the Lift
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My initial reaction to seeing the timing belt exposed the first time was...I've seen Swiss watch movements that look less complex. It can be a bit intimidating. Although I've since become quite comfortable with it, there are lots of opportunities to screw things up. Congratuations if your first one went without a hitch, but newbies should definitely read all the good guides out there first.
05-12-2012, 08:44 PM
#26
Chronic Tool Dropper
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When I did mine the first time, I started off with a request for a "care package" from 928 International. Read and absorbed info from several tips sites, and went through the WSM procedure a few times. Then set up the video camera to document the whole process, and went for it.
A few moths later, we did two at once here for guests. WP bolts broke on one of the cars, and it ended up being a very long day thanks to that. Both cars had arrived under their own power, and by midnight give or take, both had been sent home under their own power. My car and those other two are still doing fine today. The two "guest" cars are with new owners since that episode.
My car is coming due for this little procedure again in the next year or two. I'll follow the same path, with a "care package" from 928 International with everything I might need for the job. I'll probably run the camera again, since it's just about the perfect way to "remember" how things came apart. I narrated the video as I worked so I had great notes on which bolts went where, and the order that things needed to go back together. On assembly, more than a few times I'd review the video to make sure nothing was left out.
The Kelly guide has notes and pictures that give great guidance, so invest in that before you start. Work with your local group so you don't have to spend a lot on special tools needed. The flywheel lock, the tension gauge if you don't go with the Porkensioner, and the 3/4-drive socket and bar for crank bolt removal snap to mind. You'll want to have a few torque wrenches handy (3/8" and 1/4" for the engine bolts, 3/4" for the crank bolt). USE THEM RELIGIOUSLY. The local support group is likely to have that stuff available, and will save you $hundreds.
Have fun, and remember that it's a machine that's OK to work on. Others have passed this way before you, and their guidance will help you through it. And.... it is some sort of "right of passage". There's a certain feeling of accomplishment and comfort when you've got iot all together, everything double- and triple-checked, and it starts right up. It's not quite like first-time sex becuase it takes so much longer, but you get the idea.
A few moths later, we did two at once here for guests. WP bolts broke on one of the cars, and it ended up being a very long day thanks to that. Both cars had arrived under their own power, and by midnight give or take, both had been sent home under their own power. My car and those other two are still doing fine today. The two "guest" cars are with new owners since that episode.
My car is coming due for this little procedure again in the next year or two. I'll follow the same path, with a "care package" from 928 International with everything I might need for the job. I'll probably run the camera again, since it's just about the perfect way to "remember" how things came apart. I narrated the video as I worked so I had great notes on which bolts went where, and the order that things needed to go back together. On assembly, more than a few times I'd review the video to make sure nothing was left out.
The Kelly guide has notes and pictures that give great guidance, so invest in that before you start. Work with your local group so you don't have to spend a lot on special tools needed. The flywheel lock, the tension gauge if you don't go with the Porkensioner, and the 3/4-drive socket and bar for crank bolt removal snap to mind. You'll want to have a few torque wrenches handy (3/8" and 1/4" for the engine bolts, 3/4" for the crank bolt). USE THEM RELIGIOUSLY. The local support group is likely to have that stuff available, and will save you $hundreds.
Have fun, and remember that it's a machine that's OK to work on. Others have passed this way before you, and their guidance will help you through it. And.... it is some sort of "right of passage". There's a certain feeling of accomplishment and comfort when you've got iot all together, everything double- and triple-checked, and it starts right up. It's not quite like first-time sex becuase it takes so much longer, but you get the idea.
05-12-2012, 08:51 PM
#27
Get the John Kelly manual for the 85-86 engine.
I plan on doing mine next year as the belt will be 5 years old then (my milage won't be an issue).
I bought the manual a few months ago and have read it a couple times already. It's VERY thorough with every step and bolt torque documented.
It almost makes the job look fun!
You can do this job. Prior to fidning Rennlist, I had a mechanic do everything. I've been doing my own work now for the past three years and the car has yet to blow up or leave me stranded...although the car is back at my mechanic right now for the air conditioning. I want it ready for Sharks In The Mountains and don't have the time to mess with it right now.
I plan on doing mine next year as the belt will be 5 years old then (my milage won't be an issue).
I bought the manual a few months ago and have read it a couple times already. It's VERY thorough with every step and bolt torque documented.
It almost makes the job look fun!
You can do this job. Prior to fidning Rennlist, I had a mechanic do everything. I've been doing my own work now for the past three years and the car has yet to blow up or leave me stranded...although the car is back at my mechanic right now for the air conditioning. I want it ready for Sharks In The Mountains and don't have the time to mess with it right now.
05-12-2012, 09:03 PM
#28
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Bolts like WP bolts (ie: small m5-m6 bolts -steel into aluminum -) tips to remove-
-chemicals -pb blaster, kroil your choice of penetrating oil
-tap technique -tap the bolt with a square punch and spray the bolt. The tapping is to break the corrosion with physical force
-tighten then loosen- Tighten the bolt 1/16th of a turn (a hair) then loosen a hair. spray with chemicals and tap.
Repeat in this order and you usually can get the bolt. You must apply your torque perpendicular to the fastener (turning).
A little heat from a small torch is also good if the bolt is very resistant to the above techniques.
torch is last resort.
-chemicals -pb blaster, kroil your choice of penetrating oil
-tap technique -tap the bolt with a square punch and spray the bolt. The tapping is to break the corrosion with physical force
-tighten then loosen- Tighten the bolt 1/16th of a turn (a hair) then loosen a hair. spray with chemicals and tap.
Repeat in this order and you usually can get the bolt. You must apply your torque perpendicular to the fastener (turning).
A little heat from a small torch is also good if the bolt is very resistant to the above techniques.
torch is last resort.
05-12-2012, 09:08 PM
#29
Former Sponsor
Well, you are not going to hear me echo the above posts.
I actually "redo" as many timing belt jobs (that some home guys have done, but mostly from what other shops have done) than I do, in the first place.
It's not easy. However, if you start with good pieces (Roger has them), you follow good instructions (various sources), and you buy some of the special tools you will need...you might end up doing a better job than having a local shop that doesn't do many timing belts. Don't be stupid and try to take the crank nut off by using the starter motor....buy a deep 27mm socket and a 3/4" breaker bar.
One weekend will be stressful. I'd plan on us spending 12 hours in there....and we've done a very large number of these jobs.
I actually "redo" as many timing belt jobs (that some home guys have done, but mostly from what other shops have done) than I do, in the first place.
It's not easy. However, if you start with good pieces (Roger has them), you follow good instructions (various sources), and you buy some of the special tools you will need...you might end up doing a better job than having a local shop that doesn't do many timing belts. Don't be stupid and try to take the crank nut off by using the starter motor....buy a deep 27mm socket and a 3/4" breaker bar.
One weekend will be stressful. I'd plan on us spending 12 hours in there....and we've done a very large number of these jobs.
05-12-2012, 09:45 PM
#30
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I know how you feel. I went through the same exact thing when I got my car back in October last year.
I'm pretty much 1 click above novice with a wrench but knew the belt had to be done.
Read up on everything out there. There's a Ton of it out there.
Get the right tools and parts ( I used Gates/Laso ).
Expect a mess when you drain the anti-freeze.
Expect a couple of broken bolts ( I had 4 )
Total bill was around 1100 or so, which included 2 new cam gears and 1 used oil pump gear.
Just pull the trigger and go for it.
If you get stuck or aren't sure about something, post the question here, wait 10 minutes and you'll probably get your answer a couple times over.
I'm pretty much 1 click above novice with a wrench but knew the belt had to be done.
Read up on everything out there. There's a Ton of it out there.
Get the right tools and parts ( I used Gates/Laso ).
Expect a mess when you drain the anti-freeze.
Expect a couple of broken bolts ( I had 4 )
Total bill was around 1100 or so, which included 2 new cam gears and 1 used oil pump gear.
Just pull the trigger and go for it.
If you get stuck or aren't sure about something, post the question here, wait 10 minutes and you'll probably get your answer a couple times over.