dcrasta

Seems like a very cheap upgrade, based on the science behind it I would bet it makes a difference , and cumulative small increases add up.

With the chip and proper timing I could see how even a 3% gain could translate into more HP/Torque .

Another great innovation for the S3's . Thanks Ken!

Shane

Before Ken came out with the torque rings, I was thinking of taking measurements and have the "T" machined down so that everything butted up flush, and have a smoother transition for the air flow, don't need to worry 'bout that now. Was interested in silicon tubing though since it takes quite a bit of clamping force to hold the plenums on under boost, especially if you powdercoated the surface where the boots go.

On Zelda when I had the intake powdercoated I had them masked off to leave a rough surface to lock and seal the boots to under boost or just to prevent a leak. I've bypassed the cam/crankcase breathing to a provent which keeps the intake dry and oil free.

Mark, does your silicon boots allow for t-bolt clamps or is there still not enough clearance to use them?

mark kibort

he is talking about joining tubes, not entire intake runners. settle down!

mark kibort

the sharp bends of the system will negate any effects of smooth or turbulent flow from these "joiners". i have a hard tiime imagining any gains , especially in light of what they are feeding into, and the difficulty of quantifying such a claim
with the right clamps, you can easily make any rubber or silicon tube work. I agree, stock is pretty darn good though, regarding fit and finish. if anything, that joining issue would be a top hp effector, not under idle or part throttle. just think of the turbulence generated of air coming off the throttle plate.

good idea

It is a science and no science is being used here. just guesstimations. Billions of dollars spent on air flow by motorsport teams, yes, but not on this problem or is there a problem?

mark kibort

I like the ring idea, dont get me wrong, just want to know what the dyno results are truely.
I did a lot of this with all my engine builds, all the way through the air box and leading air tubes, i have yet to really see any real measureable difference in that area. smoother is better no doubt, but how much? certainly wouldnt be any advantage under part throttle for reasosn ive mentioend

MGW-Fla

For less than the cost of a 1/2 tank of premium gas, I say Ken's rings are worth the roll of the dice for the potential gain in HP They will be on my next order I place with him soon. Gotta sell my lift bars though now that I have my MaxJax!

Mike Frye

Mark,
Really? I've always been a fan of yours but the last few times I've seen you post on here it's been to trash someone else's ideas and dude it's not cool.

You seem to think that you're the smartest guy in the room and that if you haven't thought of it, it can't possibly be true or right.

The stock system is an average of averages put together and approved to meet the following (and many many more) requirements:

Balance of cost vs. performance. Reliability, sellability, noise control, gas mileage (average gas mileage), smog police approval and what the target customer expected for their money.
Also, cost of replacement/maintenance/training for everyone on the planet that deals with the Porche brand, time constraints, material constraints, supplier constraints...

If you believe that there is absolutely no possible way to add any performance gains that you haven't thought of, you're just being irrational.

The lengths of the runners has a definite effect on the flow of air. The shape and internal smoothness can have an effect. The temperature of the tubes can have an effect. Hell, a moth that somehow got through the air filter sitting on the MAF screen could have an effect.

Anyone with any experience in science or troubleshooting wouldn't speak in such absolute terms as you do. You just make yourself look close-minded and angry.

depami

Which ones? How much?

MarkRobinson

Too many Mark's on this thread.

My couplers are a custom thin-wall construction cut specifically to my order: they replicate the OE couplers, only boost-proof. I also provide OE european couplers & because the "guide grooves" that are in the stock rubber pieces are not there, I'd wager you could run t-bolt clamps if you wanted. Pic.

Mark

mark kibort

I was just addressing the claims that this could effect idle performance, let alone part throttle or WOT performance. air flow is not intuitive. I have trashed ideas that contradict some basic priciples.
smoothing the intake up i a good thing, but where the couplers are , is not that critical, as the airflow is already turbulent coming off the side plennums. at part throttle, the throttle plate itself is creating more turbulence than you can imagine. this turbulence is usually straightened out by the first 2 turnst the air will take. Also, under part throttle or idle, turbulene is a good thing actually, if it makes it to the combustion chamber for better fuel atomization.
Ive spent a great deal of time with the intake and proving things that do and dont work on the dyno. you wont see any differnce at part throttle or idle, because there is no reason you would see any differnerence. remember the turbozet? or the air swirlers? i dynoed them for fun, they did nothing. the only thing that will help our existing intakes is a way of making inlet guide vanes around the turns and bends,
Ive also tried to use all the mods i can, like the intake spacers and did some dyno runs with an engine that has 10s of dyno runs on it. you have seen those results. not just one off dyno runs. solid consistant repeatable runs, with mods, and then re dyo'ed to confirm results.

Look, if you have a theory of why it would work at part throttle, or idle, i would like to hear it but if you do, i bet you also think a clean air filter will give you better gas mileage!

If the rings do anythng, they will do it at WOT, but i think there is so much wrong with the stock intake , as far as max hp, that it wont do much of anything. it might give you a couple of HP, but the reason it cant be that efffective, is that the intake air speeds are relatively slow compared to the engines that benefit from such changes.

Hey, i would love to see the gains of a before and after of this mod But dont get mad at me for just playing devils advocate and question the reasoning behind the mod.
I did a much more dramatic mod on the part euro mods for the euro vs US plennum mod. i wouldnt bet more than a few dollars that all the port matching i did, didnt create more than 1-3 hp net . Ill never know, but that mod was an order of magnatude more effective to the air flow path.
It all boils down to pressure drop across the air flow path. put the runner on the flow bench, fill the small void, see what the gain is.

anyway, i would do it on the race car, because as it is cheap, and probably a positive gain of some sort WOT, but on a street car, im sure the gains would be very small.

Podguy

Don't let them pick on you Mark Kibot - I still like what you post.

Mike Frye

Mark K (sorry Mark R),

My point is simply this: Don't knock it till you've tried it. You have done extensive tests of everything you could think of (and were able to implement on your own in your own test conditions whatever they are). Then you've extrapolated from that the fact that no modification to the intake plenum could possibly affect part throttle. Then in the same post you say that these things are not intuitive.

You are clearly a gifted driver and I think part of that comes from making a decision based on all available data and committing to it entirely without reservation. In development, science, troubleshooting there is always another, better option waiting for technology to develop the tools, materials or the intuitive leap to find it.

To imply anything different is just junk science.

Who's picking on him? I'm trying to get him to open his eyes and recognize that other people have developed things that are working well regardless of whether he believes they work or not. His opinion of whether they should work notwithstanding.

PorKen

Why is the Kibort defiling a S3 thread (again)? Be gone, infidel, you are unclean.


However the TQrings work...they do work. It was near last on the list of things to try when making my S300s chipset because I did not think it would make a difference. After months (years) of daily tuning, I can say with some surety that I was surprised. (In my book, any change that you can feel is 5-10 hp, so I was happy.) I drove with and without many times over, on multiple cars, auto and manual, to verify. As you can imagine - if you have an S3 - this is a pain, but testing spark plugs was worse.


Base idle speed goes up (no, not from an air leak )
Idle quality improves.
Throttle response is improved.
Less throttle is required to go at the same speed on the freeway.
Manuals can be driven in any gear at very low rpms without lugging.

It's the fact that the engine has no problem providing torque, in 5th gear, below 1000 rpm, that was most striking, and why I went through the trouble of including them as part of my chipset. (And why they are called TorQe rings.) The effect is noticeable without tuning, but I made fueling and ignition changes to amplify the improvement, with good results.



I had hopes that HP peak would go up, but something else in the intake caps a S3 to around 310 rwhp sae, 5500-6500 rpm. Uncorrected, IE. cold air dyno, I made 325 rwhp (313 sae), so it's not hurting.

Darklands

Maybe the small tb ?

PorKen

I'm fairly sure now that the restriction is after the TB, so a larger throttle plate won't help.

I'm thinking about enlarging the runners inside the plenum, tapering them out to the end of the bellmouth.