928 broken timing belt help!
11-21-2011, 04:01 AM
#46
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Dude. You need another shop, or to find a space to do the work yourself. Used 16v 928 motors can be had for $100 and can be found easily for under $500. A rebuild (if it needed that) would likely only be a valve grind/ head surface and you are looking at $200 for the gaskets and probably $300 for the machine work. And it is easy. If he is talking $30k he is a) looking to majorly rip you the hell off, b) telling you he does not want the job, c) totally clueless, or d) all of the above. My guess is b.
The worst part of 928 ownership is that this sort of crap is pretty common. Most of us end up doing our own work.
Still, this is not a money making proposition. Most likely you will be looking at: Fuel pump ($200), fuel filters/strainer ($100), fuel lines ($100), water pump ($400), timing belt($100), timing belt rollers ($300), WUR ($400) to get the thing running. Say, 2K in parts. Then you are likely looking at a power steering rack, and the AC will need a R12 charge at least. Another $1k in parts. So you are in $6k plus labor before you have touched paint, upholstry, or tires and before anything suprising goes wrong. And unless the paint and upholstery are very very nice it will never be worth anything close to that.
Could be a fun hobby and a cool car to drive, but you will have to work to keep expenses under control so that it can just be a slighly expensive hobby and not a significant bad life decision. For some of us this is just part of the fun.
From where you are I would:
1) pull off the timing covers and check to see it the water pump or any or the rollers are seized or super noisy. Check that the drivers side cam is not broken.
2) if ok on 1, beg list members for a free used timing belt
3) install timing belt per free downloaded manual and check compression
4) drain and flush the fuel tank
5) jumper the fuel pump relay and see if the pump runs
6) if Ok, check the WUR pressures (beg list members to borrow a gauge set)
7) if OK, check the FD.
8) if all that pans out OK start it and check the tranny and check for oil leaks.
This is basically a long weekend worth of work which does not cost any money at all. I doubt you will get through the list without finding some potenitally expensive issues, but you never know, and at least you would know where you are.
If you can't or don't want to do the above yourself you have two choices: 1) find a mechanic who is interested in working that way. I think you are looking at 10 to 20 hours of work to figure out what's what. So maybe $1k to $2k depending on labor rates where you are. Might be much less if you had a handy buddy with a warm garage who would work for beer and a little quiet cash, but keep in mind that this does not get you a drivable car, just IDs what you have to spend to get a drivable car. 2) sell at a loss. You probably will have to loose much of what you have invested so far, but it can get a lot worse very quickly. Sometimes it is better to fold a loosing hand.
The worst part of 928 ownership is that this sort of crap is pretty common. Most of us end up doing our own work.
Still, this is not a money making proposition. Most likely you will be looking at: Fuel pump ($200), fuel filters/strainer ($100), fuel lines ($100), water pump ($400), timing belt($100), timing belt rollers ($300), WUR ($400) to get the thing running. Say, 2K in parts. Then you are likely looking at a power steering rack, and the AC will need a R12 charge at least. Another $1k in parts. So you are in $6k plus labor before you have touched paint, upholstry, or tires and before anything suprising goes wrong. And unless the paint and upholstery are very very nice it will never be worth anything close to that.
Could be a fun hobby and a cool car to drive, but you will have to work to keep expenses under control so that it can just be a slighly expensive hobby and not a significant bad life decision. For some of us this is just part of the fun.
From where you are I would:
1) pull off the timing covers and check to see it the water pump or any or the rollers are seized or super noisy. Check that the drivers side cam is not broken.
2) if ok on 1, beg list members for a free used timing belt
3) install timing belt per free downloaded manual and check compression
4) drain and flush the fuel tank
5) jumper the fuel pump relay and see if the pump runs
6) if Ok, check the WUR pressures (beg list members to borrow a gauge set)
7) if OK, check the FD.
8) if all that pans out OK start it and check the tranny and check for oil leaks.
This is basically a long weekend worth of work which does not cost any money at all. I doubt you will get through the list without finding some potenitally expensive issues, but you never know, and at least you would know where you are.
If you can't or don't want to do the above yourself you have two choices: 1) find a mechanic who is interested in working that way. I think you are looking at 10 to 20 hours of work to figure out what's what. So maybe $1k to $2k depending on labor rates where you are. Might be much less if you had a handy buddy with a warm garage who would work for beer and a little quiet cash, but keep in mind that this does not get you a drivable car, just IDs what you have to spend to get a drivable car. 2) sell at a loss. You probably will have to loose much of what you have invested so far, but it can get a lot worse very quickly. Sometimes it is better to fold a loosing hand.
11-21-2011, 04:24 AM
#47
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What's included in that $4200. That is way too high for just a timing belt replacement. On your year of 928, a broken belt isn't usually a big deal. Put on a new belt (and replace the water pump and rollers) and you're good to go. Don't worry about water on the block till you get past the timing belt issue.
Where are you in Canada? Quite a few guys here from north of the border who could probably steer you in the right direction with regards to repair shops if your current shop isn't familiar with 928s.
Where are you in Canada? Quite a few guys here from north of the border who could probably steer you in the right direction with regards to repair shops if your current shop isn't familiar with 928s.
11-21-2011, 04:34 AM
#48
When I rebuilt my TT I deliberately left the heavy balance weight out -it has a reputation of bashing back and forth, clunking and worse pushing the bearings forward into the wrong location. No driveline vibration whatsoever with or without that. But I was also careful not to have all three TT bearing carriers at equal distances, my thinking being that if they were unequally spaced that would tend to reduce any sinosaudal-caused harmonic vibration. Worth considering as a cause of your vibration??
11-21-2011, 04:40 AM
#49
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Yes AH you are correct and B Ball is wrong. The 79 euro is an interfearance engine. I think the cam lobes are larger and open the valves higher.
and Im talking from EXPERIANCE and ownership of a 79 euro
Blue, if the car is in nice shape the car is worth what you paid easy. even if the pait was rough but the interior was nice.. still in good shape. Dont lose hope yet. The 928 is a love for the car project. If you have a nice one, it really is best to stick with it. But also if its a dog, dump it.
and Im talking from EXPERIANCE and ownership of a 79 euro
Blue, if the car is in nice shape the car is worth what you paid easy. even if the pait was rough but the interior was nice.. still in good shape. Dont lose hope yet. The 928 is a love for the car project. If you have a nice one, it really is best to stick with it. But also if its a dog, dump it.
11-21-2011, 07:06 AM
#50
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If someone talked you into a valve job as a result of a broken belt they cheated you.
11-21-2011, 07:29 AM
#51
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I love my 928 - all 9 of them. I have torn several apart and restored a few. What you find very quickly it the inferiority of PORSCHE parts. if you replace something on the 928 with another Porsche factory part you are just setting a time bomb for failure. Worse the part may have been sitting on the shelf for 10 years or more.
I bought my first 928 in 1979 (still have the car) and was plagued with a never ending set of factory failures. Before I could drive it 10K miles it had nemerous failures all one a one year old low mileage car. Today the car only has 44K miles so you can see how this works. i was standed a number of times with the car and the 78 is the simplest 928 Porsche made. Some of the failures bordered on the bizzar to the point of almost being humorous - that is if it was not happening to me. On one weekend vacation shortly after getting the car a different thing failed each day and we barely made it home. Some of the problems disappeared and then reappeared later.
In comparison I had a 2.0 Porsche 914 before that was trouble free for 150K miles and sold for more than I paid for it. The failure of the 928 line was tied directly to the poor and very expensive maintenance record. Porsche owners who were talked into the car were in shock at the repair costs, the poor quality of the finishings and the number of times they were standed.
There are so many places where the car should be upgraded for reliability. Porsche hoses and timing belts rot. The belts, water pumps, motor mounts and other alternative parts that Roger and others provide are far superior than anything that Porsche offers. I suspect in Canada choices are limited but I would run as fast as you can from that fancy glitzy shop that will give you one hindred excuses why things do not last only to hand you yet one more large bill. The 928 is a very expensive car to own. Expenses will creep up on you in a hundred different ways than you can imagine and they have bankrupted more than one owner.
One more point - rebuilding the engine for $30K is insanity. The one part on the 928 that runs almost forever is the motor. Everything else will fail before the bearings and rings wear out. Every gasket, seal and hose will leak first. Case in point from the above Roger and other sell a silicon oil pan gasket that will not leak and is reusable. 928 Motorsports makes a stud kit that will replace the bolts on the pan that are always coming loose and sin some cases stripping. it is almost a criminal act for a shop to install a factory cork gasket - especially per the manual without a sealer.
I do not mean to be on a rant but if you are going to spend money and eventually enjoy this car getsome one that knows what they are doing and do not fall for the showmanship of an all Porsche stocked shop. The Porsche people are not gods.
I bought my first 928 in 1979 (still have the car) and was plagued with a never ending set of factory failures. Before I could drive it 10K miles it had nemerous failures all one a one year old low mileage car. Today the car only has 44K miles so you can see how this works. i was standed a number of times with the car and the 78 is the simplest 928 Porsche made. Some of the failures bordered on the bizzar to the point of almost being humorous - that is if it was not happening to me. On one weekend vacation shortly after getting the car a different thing failed each day and we barely made it home. Some of the problems disappeared and then reappeared later.
In comparison I had a 2.0 Porsche 914 before that was trouble free for 150K miles and sold for more than I paid for it. The failure of the 928 line was tied directly to the poor and very expensive maintenance record. Porsche owners who were talked into the car were in shock at the repair costs, the poor quality of the finishings and the number of times they were standed.
There are so many places where the car should be upgraded for reliability. Porsche hoses and timing belts rot. The belts, water pumps, motor mounts and other alternative parts that Roger and others provide are far superior than anything that Porsche offers. I suspect in Canada choices are limited but I would run as fast as you can from that fancy glitzy shop that will give you one hindred excuses why things do not last only to hand you yet one more large bill. The 928 is a very expensive car to own. Expenses will creep up on you in a hundred different ways than you can imagine and they have bankrupted more than one owner.
One more point - rebuilding the engine for $30K is insanity. The one part on the 928 that runs almost forever is the motor. Everything else will fail before the bearings and rings wear out. Every gasket, seal and hose will leak first. Case in point from the above Roger and other sell a silicon oil pan gasket that will not leak and is reusable. 928 Motorsports makes a stud kit that will replace the bolts on the pan that are always coming loose and sin some cases stripping. it is almost a criminal act for a shop to install a factory cork gasket - especially per the manual without a sealer.
I do not mean to be on a rant but if you are going to spend money and eventually enjoy this car getsome one that knows what they are doing and do not fall for the showmanship of an all Porsche stocked shop. The Porsche people are not gods.
11-21-2011, 11:10 AM
#52
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What's included in that $4200. That is way too high for just a timing belt replacement. On your year of 928, a broken belt isn't usually a big deal. Put on a new belt (and replace the water pump and rollers) and you're good to go. Don't worry about water on the block till you get past the timing belt issue.
Where are you in Canada? Quite a few guys here from north of the border who could probably steer you in the right direction with regards to repair shops if your current shop isn't familiar with 928s.
Where are you in Canada? Quite a few guys here from north of the border who could probably steer you in the right direction with regards to repair shops if your current shop isn't familiar with 928s.
What's with reposting my post verbatim?
11-21-2011, 05:49 PM
#53
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Dude. You need another shop, or to find a space to do the work yourself. Used 16v 928 motors can be had for $100 and can be found easily for under $500. A rebuild (if it needed that) would likely only be a valve grind/ head surface and you are looking at $200 for the gaskets and probably $300 for the machine work. And it is easy. If he is talking $30k he is a) looking to majorly rip you the hell off, b) telling you he does not want the job, c) totally clueless, or d) all of the above. My guess is b.
The worst part of 928 ownership is that this sort of crap is pretty common. Most of us end up doing our own work.
Still, this is not a money making proposition. Most likely you will be looking at: Fuel pump ($200), fuel filters/strainer ($100), fuel lines ($100), water pump ($400), timing belt($100), timing belt rollers ($300), WUR ($400) to get the thing running. Say, 2K in parts. Then you are likely looking at a power steering rack, and the AC will need a R12 charge at least. Another $1k in parts. So you are in $6k plus labor before you have touched paint, upholstry, or tires and before anything suprising goes wrong. And unless the paint and upholstery are very very nice it will never be worth anything close to that.
Could be a fun hobby and a cool car to drive, but you will have to work to keep expenses under control so that it can just be a slighly expensive hobby and not a significant bad life decision. For some of us this is just part of the fun.
From where you are I would:
1) pull off the timing covers and check to see it the water pump or any or the rollers are seized or super noisy. Check that the drivers side cam is not broken.
2) if ok on 1, beg list members for a free used timing belt
3) install timing belt per free downloaded manual and check compression
4) drain and flush the fuel tank
5) jumper the fuel pump relay and see if the pump runs
6) if Ok, check the WUR pressures (beg list members to borrow a gauge set)
7) if OK, check the FD.
8) if all that pans out OK start it and check the tranny and check for oil leaks.
This is basically a long weekend worth of work which does not cost any money at all. I doubt you will get through the list without finding some potenitally expensive issues, but you never know, and at least you would know where you are.
If you can't or don't want to do the above yourself you have two choices: 1) find a mechanic who is interested in working that way. I think you are looking at 10 to 20 hours of work to figure out what's what. So maybe $1k to $2k depending on labor rates where you are. Might be much less if you had a handy buddy with a warm garage who would work for beer and a little quiet cash, but keep in mind that this does not get you a drivable car, just IDs what you have to spend to get a drivable car. 2) sell at a loss. You probably will have to loose much of what you have invested so far, but it can get a lot worse very quickly. Sometimes it is better to fold a loosing hand.
The worst part of 928 ownership is that this sort of crap is pretty common. Most of us end up doing our own work.
Still, this is not a money making proposition. Most likely you will be looking at: Fuel pump ($200), fuel filters/strainer ($100), fuel lines ($100), water pump ($400), timing belt($100), timing belt rollers ($300), WUR ($400) to get the thing running. Say, 2K in parts. Then you are likely looking at a power steering rack, and the AC will need a R12 charge at least. Another $1k in parts. So you are in $6k plus labor before you have touched paint, upholstry, or tires and before anything suprising goes wrong. And unless the paint and upholstery are very very nice it will never be worth anything close to that.
Could be a fun hobby and a cool car to drive, but you will have to work to keep expenses under control so that it can just be a slighly expensive hobby and not a significant bad life decision. For some of us this is just part of the fun.
From where you are I would:
1) pull off the timing covers and check to see it the water pump or any or the rollers are seized or super noisy. Check that the drivers side cam is not broken.
2) if ok on 1, beg list members for a free used timing belt
3) install timing belt per free downloaded manual and check compression
4) drain and flush the fuel tank
5) jumper the fuel pump relay and see if the pump runs
6) if Ok, check the WUR pressures (beg list members to borrow a gauge set)
7) if OK, check the FD.
8) if all that pans out OK start it and check the tranny and check for oil leaks.
This is basically a long weekend worth of work which does not cost any money at all. I doubt you will get through the list without finding some potenitally expensive issues, but you never know, and at least you would know where you are.
If you can't or don't want to do the above yourself you have two choices: 1) find a mechanic who is interested in working that way. I think you are looking at 10 to 20 hours of work to figure out what's what. So maybe $1k to $2k depending on labor rates where you are. Might be much less if you had a handy buddy with a warm garage who would work for beer and a little quiet cash, but keep in mind that this does not get you a drivable car, just IDs what you have to spend to get a drivable car. 2) sell at a loss. You probably will have to loose much of what you have invested so far, but it can get a lot worse very quickly. Sometimes it is better to fold a loosing hand.
11-21-2011, 05:56 PM
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What's included in that $4200. That is way too high for just a timing belt replacement. On your year of 928, a broken belt isn't usually a big deal. Put on a new belt (and replace the water pump and rollers) and you're good to go. Don't worry about water on the block till you get past the timing belt issue.
Where are you in Canada? Quite a few guys here from north of the border who could probably steer you in the right direction with regards to repair shops if your current shop isn't familiar with 928s.
Where are you in Canada? Quite a few guys here from north of the border who could probably steer you in the right direction with regards to repair shops if your current shop isn't familiar with 928s.
11-21-2011, 06:01 PM
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Is this a Euro? Even if it is, it would be a low compression M28/01. AFAIK, the only difference between Euro and US 78-79 motors is the throttle housing. Checking PET, everything else in the motor shares the same part numbers. High compression M28/09 or 11 are from 1980 on, and even those don't appear to be interference motors, at least from static experiments spinning the cam around on one at TDC. Let's see what he finds when he reinstalls the belt.
No this is not a euro it has Canada seal stamps in the driver door
11-21-2011, 06:03 PM
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WRONG - the 79 Euro is a 4.5 engine and the same engine put in the US model. There is virtually no difference. The Euro S did not come out until 1980 and even that engine is a non interface engine. I have one and put one in Erik's car so I know from first hand experience.
If someone talked you into a valve job as a result of a broken belt they cheated you.
If someone talked you into a valve job as a result of a broken belt they cheated you.
11-21-2011, 06:07 PM
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I love my 928 - all 9 of them. I have torn several apart and restored a few. What you find very quickly it the inferiority of PORSCHE parts. if you replace something on the 928 with another Porsche factory part you are just setting a time bomb for failure. Worse the part may have been sitting on the shelf for 10 years or more.
I bought my first 928 in 1979 (still have the car) and was plagued with a never ending set of factory failures. Before I could drive it 10K miles it had nemerous failures all one a one year old low mileage car. Today the car only has 44K miles so you can see how this works. i was standed a number of times with the car and the 78 is the simplest 928 Porsche made. Some of the failures bordered on the bizzar to the point of almost being humorous - that is if it was not happening to me. On one weekend vacation shortly after getting the car a different thing failed each day and we barely made it home. Some of the problems disappeared and then reappeared later.
In comparison I had a 2.0 Porsche 914 before that was trouble free for 150K miles and sold for more than I paid for it. The failure of the 928 line was tied directly to the poor and very expensive maintenance record. Porsche owners who were talked into the car were in shock at the repair costs, the poor quality of the finishings and the number of times they were standed.
There are so many places where the car should be upgraded for reliability. Porsche hoses and timing belts rot. The belts, water pumps, motor mounts and other alternative parts that Roger and others provide are far superior than anything that Porsche offers. I suspect in Canada choices are limited but I would run as fast as you can from that fancy glitzy shop that will give you one hindred excuses why things do not last only to hand you yet one more large bill. The 928 is a very expensive car to own. Expenses will creep up on you in a hundred different ways than you can imagine and they have bankrupted more than one owner.
One more point - rebuilding the engine for $30K is insanity. The one part on the 928 that runs almost forever is the motor. Everything else will fail before the bearings and rings wear out. Every gasket, seal and hose will leak first. Case in point from the above Roger and other sell a silicon oil pan gasket that will not leak and is reusable. 928 Motorsports makes a stud kit that will replace the bolts on the pan that are always coming loose and sin some cases stripping. it is almost a criminal act for a shop to install a factory cork gasket - especially per the manual without a sealer.
I do not mean to be on a rant but if you are going to spend money and eventually enjoy this car getsome one that knows what they are doing and do not fall for the showmanship of an all Porsche stocked shop. The Porsche people are not gods.
I bought my first 928 in 1979 (still have the car) and was plagued with a never ending set of factory failures. Before I could drive it 10K miles it had nemerous failures all one a one year old low mileage car. Today the car only has 44K miles so you can see how this works. i was standed a number of times with the car and the 78 is the simplest 928 Porsche made. Some of the failures bordered on the bizzar to the point of almost being humorous - that is if it was not happening to me. On one weekend vacation shortly after getting the car a different thing failed each day and we barely made it home. Some of the problems disappeared and then reappeared later.
In comparison I had a 2.0 Porsche 914 before that was trouble free for 150K miles and sold for more than I paid for it. The failure of the 928 line was tied directly to the poor and very expensive maintenance record. Porsche owners who were talked into the car were in shock at the repair costs, the poor quality of the finishings and the number of times they were standed.
There are so many places where the car should be upgraded for reliability. Porsche hoses and timing belts rot. The belts, water pumps, motor mounts and other alternative parts that Roger and others provide are far superior than anything that Porsche offers. I suspect in Canada choices are limited but I would run as fast as you can from that fancy glitzy shop that will give you one hindred excuses why things do not last only to hand you yet one more large bill. The 928 is a very expensive car to own. Expenses will creep up on you in a hundred different ways than you can imagine and they have bankrupted more than one owner.
One more point - rebuilding the engine for $30K is insanity. The one part on the 928 that runs almost forever is the motor. Everything else will fail before the bearings and rings wear out. Every gasket, seal and hose will leak first. Case in point from the above Roger and other sell a silicon oil pan gasket that will not leak and is reusable. 928 Motorsports makes a stud kit that will replace the bolts on the pan that are always coming loose and sin some cases stripping. it is almost a criminal act for a shop to install a factory cork gasket - especially per the manual without a sealer.
I do not mean to be on a rant but if you are going to spend money and eventually enjoy this car getsome one that knows what they are doing and do not fall for the showmanship of an all Porsche stocked shop. The Porsche people are not gods.
11-21-2011, 08:33 PM
#58
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11-21-2011, 08:51 PM
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Well, it could be that was a quote for a job that included refurbishing the heads, assuming there was valve damage. To string a belt and test compression (if it does not run well), should not cost much. This car may have many other things wrong with it, but I'm still not expecting valve damage.
11-21-2011, 08:52 PM
#60
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