S4 Budge stroke engine build question??
10-24-2011, 10:53 AM
#166
Rennlist Member
What he said^^^^^^
10-24-2011, 12:35 PM
#167
Burning Brakes
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OK ...." Moldex crank.They are one of the best out there.
They been in business for over 40 years and when it comes to custom crankshafts
they seem to be able to build anything you need."
Perhaps more accurate to state they can build most anything YOU TELL THEM TO BUILD ! They are not going to design a crank for you but can make you a "copy" of what they have done before.....for someone else. But yes materials and machining quality, workmanship is high; delivery schedules often get pushed back as they take care of their big customers.....
Many years ago a well know machine shop/crank "expert" known for VW engines was quite willing to grind off and knife edge the counterweights on a 928 Crankshaft.......like he did on the hotrod flat 4 engines. When it then went to another shop for balancing with the rods and pistons it was painfully clear that so much material was removed that no amount of heavy metal was going to allow that crank to EVER run !!!! Knowing what to build, what specifications are needed and how all the variables add up is often the result of experience. Those lessons in life often come at a price, time, labor, money.
Sadly some people for one reason or another seem to want to walk down the same path which others have followed and make some of the very same mistakes........ However rather than calling someone a LIAR, I submit perhaps it is best to simply say, I have not proven that yet and need to try it myself.
They been in business for over 40 years and when it comes to custom crankshafts
they seem to be able to build anything you need."
Perhaps more accurate to state they can build most anything YOU TELL THEM TO BUILD ! They are not going to design a crank for you but can make you a "copy" of what they have done before.....for someone else. But yes materials and machining quality, workmanship is high; delivery schedules often get pushed back as they take care of their big customers.....
Many years ago a well know machine shop/crank "expert" known for VW engines was quite willing to grind off and knife edge the counterweights on a 928 Crankshaft.......like he did on the hotrod flat 4 engines. When it then went to another shop for balancing with the rods and pistons it was painfully clear that so much material was removed that no amount of heavy metal was going to allow that crank to EVER run !!!! Knowing what to build, what specifications are needed and how all the variables add up is often the result of experience. Those lessons in life often come at a price, time, labor, money.
Sadly some people for one reason or another seem to want to walk down the same path which others have followed and make some of the very same mistakes........ However rather than calling someone a LIAR, I submit perhaps it is best to simply say, I have not proven that yet and need to try it myself.
They wanted to know piston weight in grams,rod weight so they could put in heavier plugs if you wanted knife edging so you could get the balance closer to make sure it would be a usable cran and could be easily balanced after.Thats the difference of going there to a shop that of a well known expert.The shop had the machine work let me know the approximate weight needed so yes you do need a good shop also.
The place I had machine work done was within 100 miles and Dave moved out of state now which he did work for some of Superstock and Arca truck racing.He set class record back in the early 1980's in SS/IA with their 340 Duster and has been doing race motors for years.Back then he was part owner of Ritter/Weber racing.
http://modernmuscle.biz/index.html
http://modernmuscle.biz/about_us.html
Their new site is
http://www.modernmuscleperformance.com/aboutus.asp
They designed the belt drive system for small block chryslers and have years of building motors for professional racers.
They did move thou later on to out of state and Dave is one of the best in engine building and is now in Virginia and build some nice later model street car motors for supercharged Challengers etc.
It may be acurate to say tell them what to build,but they also made sure to know exaclly what I was using so there wasn't problems with balancing.
They may make a copy of what someone had before or go off of a crank they never had before but if you are using a special size rod jounnal size that noone has used on that particular setup and you needed that size it could be made.That's what I meant about being able to build anything you need.
Not to hijack the thread but just saying best to go with a shop that has been doing professional engine building for years.
Thats who helped me back then with the stroker motor.
Last edited by inactiveuser1; 10-24-2011 at 01:18 PM.
10-24-2011, 02:45 PM
#169
Former Sponsor
Actually it's worse than that. Nitriting takes many hours and it's not a matter of being nitrited or not. The longer it's in the deeper the hardness. Nitriting can be a significant cost and use of resources if done properly for a good depth.
So yes, it's possible to cheaply nitrite by not leaving it in long and still calling it nitrited but it would be meaningless and be polished off.
These are the kinds of things I could absolutley see happeing in China. If you're the guy in charge of ordering the material or running the nitriting bath, are you going to effectively shut down production and the influx of American dollars because you don't have chrome-moly steel or enough time to soak all the parts for 8 hours? No, you really wouldn't want to be that guy in China.
Do you think the massive output of China is becasue they always have the proper materials and time to perform all the steps?
So yes, it's possible to cheaply nitrite by not leaving it in long and still calling it nitrited but it would be meaningless and be polished off.
These are the kinds of things I could absolutley see happeing in China. If you're the guy in charge of ordering the material or running the nitriting bath, are you going to effectively shut down production and the influx of American dollars because you don't have chrome-moly steel or enough time to soak all the parts for 8 hours? No, you really wouldn't want to be that guy in China.
Do you think the massive output of China is becasue they always have the proper materials and time to perform all the steps?
Thanks for this information. Although I suspect that Scat cranks are inherently "soft" due to the metal used (and apparently there are 5-6 different "grades" of 4340 available, in the US....maybe more, in China), that is actually great news for the crankshaft that I had which wore the journals instead of the rod bearings?
As I said, I had it machined undersize and they re-nitrited the crankshaft. We did re-install this crankshaft and run it for a few months, until we were able to switch it with a Moldex crankshaft. I'm not sure exactly how many hours it ran, but when it came back out, there was no obvious wear on the rod journals.
Jay Steel said that there was a chemical test that they did to determine if the crank had been nitrited, in the first place and this test was positive....but maybe this test doesn't indicate the quality/depth of the nitriting?
Perhaps it got "partially" nitrited, but wasn't left in the bath long enough to do the "complete" job and the surface would now be hard enough to not wear, since we had it redone?
10-24-2011, 02:54 PM
#170
Administrator - "Tyson"
Lifetime Rennlist
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Lifetime Rennlist
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As long as everyone acts like adults I see no reason to close anything. I've seen a few posts that have me shaking my head at a couple of people (just because I expect more from them), that's for me to handle 1x1.
Greg and Jerry are big boys that can handle themselves. If this turns into mindless mud-slinging, that will be a different story.
To the rest of you, keep it on point without the mud slinging towards anyone.
Greg and Jerry are big boys that can handle themselves. If this turns into mindless mud-slinging, that will be a different story.
To the rest of you, keep it on point without the mud slinging towards anyone.
10-24-2011, 04:03 PM
#171
Rennlist Member
Although I suspect that Scat cranks are inherently "soft" due to the metal used (and apparently there are 5-6 different "grades" of 4340 available, in the US....maybe more, in China), that is actually great news for the crankshaft that I had which wore the journals instead of the rod bearings?
First you've got issues with not being able to find crank bearings with enough clearance, and then SCAT answers your prayers with a "self-tolerancing" crank and you're STILL not happy.
Some people are just never satisfied with anything.
ha ha.
10-24-2011, 04:28 PM
#173
Former Sponsor
10-24-2011, 04:55 PM
#174
Rennlist Member
.
GB,
Getting back to the original topic of budget stroker, will you be offering a "kit" that would come with the Crank, Offset Rods, Pistons, and rings/bearings in order to make a 6 liter motor? Basically a rotating assembly that I could buy and install in my 5 liter block that would work. Being turbo-charged already, I'm not interested in increasing the bore to attain 6.5 liters. I couldn't purchase something like this anytime soon, but still very interested to know:
a. If you will offer it
b. How much it would cost ball park.
Edit: I assume a customer could order whatever compression ratio they watned???
Getting back to the original topic of budget stroker, will you be offering a "kit" that would come with the Crank, Offset Rods, Pistons, and rings/bearings in order to make a 6 liter motor? Basically a rotating assembly that I could buy and install in my 5 liter block that would work. Being turbo-charged already, I'm not interested in increasing the bore to attain 6.5 liters. I couldn't purchase something like this anytime soon, but still very interested to know:
a. If you will offer it
b. How much it would cost ball park.
Edit: I assume a customer could order whatever compression ratio they watned???
10-24-2011, 06:10 PM
#175
Former Sponsor
GB,
Getting back to the original topic of budget stroker, will you be offering a "kit" that would come with the Crank, Offset Rods, Pistons, and rings/bearings in order to make a 6 liter motor? Basically a rotating assembly that I could buy and install in my 5 liter block that would work. Being turbo-charged already, I'm not interested in increasing the bore to attain 6.5 liters. I couldn't purchase something like this anytime soon, but still very interested to know:
a. If you will offer it
b. How much it would cost ball park.
Edit: I assume a customer could order whatever compression ratio they watned???
Getting back to the original topic of budget stroker, will you be offering a "kit" that would come with the Crank, Offset Rods, Pistons, and rings/bearings in order to make a 6 liter motor? Basically a rotating assembly that I could buy and install in my 5 liter block that would work. Being turbo-charged already, I'm not interested in increasing the bore to attain 6.5 liters. I couldn't purchase something like this anytime soon, but still very interested to know:
a. If you will offer it
b. How much it would cost ball park.
Edit: I assume a customer could order whatever compression ratio they watned???
I'm going to initially try to do this so that people can use their stock pistons, in the 5 liter (I'm still measuring to see if this is possible.) This would allow them to keep their stock pistons and Alusil bore, cutting down the cost significantly and still have a "nice" 5.4 engine.
If someone with a 5.0 liter has a damaged bore and the block needs to be bored/repaired, we've done a few with 102mm Nicosil bore...which still has plenty of wall thickness for a supercharged application. Combine this with a GTS stroke crank and you have a 5.6 liter. Both of these require a custom piston.
For the long stroke engine (which would get one to 6 liters, with the stock bore) we have always had a crankshaft and rod combination that works...but that requires a custom piston and therefore a Nicosil bore. With the "stock bore" that gives you the 6.0 liter variant. Increasing the bore size to 102 gets you a 6.2 liter engine,
I think all of the decisions about size basically are going to depend on what condition the stock engine is in, when disassembled, and what the customer wants, for a final product.
I won't have final prices on all the pieces until the pieces are actually done, but I'm going to try to hold the prices near our "current" levels. The cranks will be more complex and will be slightly more, but a connecting rod is a connecting rod, and a custom piston is a custom piston.
In terms of compression ratio, about the only thing I don't try and keep "on the shelf" is pistons.....because of the "compression ratio variable". I've got about 6 different piston designs, depending on the application, for 6.5 liter engines, alone. I currently figure out what compression ratio I desire and order the pistons at that time. Pistons do not have the "long lead" time that cranks and rods have, so this is not generally a problem.
10-24-2011, 06:12 PM
#176
Administrator - "Tyson"
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Are all the cranks going to be the same or is there "room" in this project / idea for a de-stroked version?
10-24-2011, 06:27 PM
#177
Rennlist Member
Greg, three quick questions:
1. How many 2R rods have you had to replace because of rod fatigue?
2. GT rods or GTS rods?
2. Why do you always have to Nikasil the bores?
You may be surprised by the answer to a few of them...
1. How many 2R rods have you had to replace because of rod fatigue?
2. GT rods or GTS rods?
2. Why do you always have to Nikasil the bores?
You may be surprised by the answer to a few of them...
10-24-2011, 07:31 PM
#178
Rennlist Member
Hi All. I did take a little of Greg Brown's advise and called Carillo to talk to the expert Greg referred me to, Richard Batchelor who is brother to a famous automotive expert of the same last name. I wasn't sure just how being someone's brother imputes their knowledge and expertise to you, but it turned out not to matter since he was not in. I was referred to his stand-in tech rep named Barry. When I asked if he had any knowledge about the use of offset carillo rods in 928 stroker conversions using Chev rods, he said he knew a little about it.
So the first thing I asked was what the offset is in the carillo rods used for this application. He was gone from the call for a couple of minutes and then reported that the offset built into the carillo rods for this application is 0.050 inch or fifty thousandths of an inch. That is just a little under one and one third millimeter. Then he said it is negative offset; and when I aked him if that meant that the offset was toward the center of the crank throw, he at first agreed, then after a few moments he corrected himself and said that it was actually toward the fillet part of the rod journal, in otherwords, as I understtod him, away from the center of the rod journal.
He described that the offset is built into the rod so that the small end and the shaft or beam of the rod is lined up with the center of the bore and affixed to the big end of the rod offset as described.
Then I asked him what the purpose was of the offset and he gave an explaination similar to what Greg Brown has been saying. However when I asked him about the free rocking tendency of the pistons with the piston pin offset from center as are many Porsche pistons, all he could say was that it is on a different plane.
I guess the conclusion is that the piston can rock offcenter in one plane, but not in the other even though there is the cylinder bore, the pin bosses and the pin and rod end to resist it in one plane but nothing but the piston skirt and cylinder wall to resist it in the other.
I also asked around from some who may have as much or more time driving 928 strokers that maybe Greg Brown has building them and find that using one or the other of the rods, offset or standard is really no big deal. There is no data to support the failure rate of these 928 stroker conversion using standard Chevy rods.
Jerry Feather
So the first thing I asked was what the offset is in the carillo rods used for this application. He was gone from the call for a couple of minutes and then reported that the offset built into the carillo rods for this application is 0.050 inch or fifty thousandths of an inch. That is just a little under one and one third millimeter. Then he said it is negative offset; and when I aked him if that meant that the offset was toward the center of the crank throw, he at first agreed, then after a few moments he corrected himself and said that it was actually toward the fillet part of the rod journal, in otherwords, as I understtod him, away from the center of the rod journal.
He described that the offset is built into the rod so that the small end and the shaft or beam of the rod is lined up with the center of the bore and affixed to the big end of the rod offset as described.
Then I asked him what the purpose was of the offset and he gave an explaination similar to what Greg Brown has been saying. However when I asked him about the free rocking tendency of the pistons with the piston pin offset from center as are many Porsche pistons, all he could say was that it is on a different plane.
I guess the conclusion is that the piston can rock offcenter in one plane, but not in the other even though there is the cylinder bore, the pin bosses and the pin and rod end to resist it in one plane but nothing but the piston skirt and cylinder wall to resist it in the other.
I also asked around from some who may have as much or more time driving 928 strokers that maybe Greg Brown has building them and find that using one or the other of the rods, offset or standard is really no big deal. There is no data to support the failure rate of these 928 stroker conversion using standard Chevy rods.
Jerry Feather
10-24-2011, 08:07 PM
#179
Former Sponsor
Hi All. I did take a little of Greg Brown's advise and called Carillo to talk to the expert Greg referred me to, Richard Batchelor who is brother to a famous automotive expert of the same last name. I wasn't sure just how being someone's brother imputes their knowledge and expertise to you, but it turned out not to matter since he was not in. I was referred to his stand-in tech rep named Barry. When I asked if he had any knowledge about the use of offset carillo rods in 928 stroker conversions using Chev rods, he said he knew a little about it.
So the first thing I asked was what the offset is in the carillo rods used for this application. He was gone from the call for a couple of minutes and then reported that the offset built into the carillo rods for this application is 0.050 inch or fifty thousandths of an inch. That is just a little under one and one third millimeter. Then he said it is negative offset; and when I aked him if that meant that the offset was toward the center of the crank throw, he at first agreed, then after a few moments he corrected himself and said that it was actually toward the fillet part of the rod journal, in otherwords, as I understtod him, away from the center of the rod journal.
He described that the offset is built into the rod so that the small end and the shaft or beam of the rod is lined up with the center of the bore and affixed to the big end of the rod offset as described.
Then I asked him what the purpose was of the offset and he gave an explaination similar to what Greg Brown has been saying. However when I asked him about the free rocking tendency of the pistons with the piston pin offset from center as are many Porsche pistons, all he could say was that it is on a different plane.
I guess the conclusion is that the piston can rock offcenter in one plane, but not in the other even though there is the cylinder bore, the pin bosses and the pin and rod end to resist it in one plane but nothing but the piston skirt and cylinder wall to resist it in the other. You know that there is no piston skirt to keep the piston from rocking in the bore, in the plane of the wrist pin, right?
I also asked around from some who may have as much or more time driving 928 strokers that maybe Greg Brown has building them and find that using one or the other of the rods, offset or standard is really no big deal. There is no data to support the failure rate of these 928 stroker conversion using standard Chevy rods. So, all of the stroker engines that I've redone, due to bore failure from the piston rocking don't count, because I've done them?
Jerry Feather
So the first thing I asked was what the offset is in the carillo rods used for this application. He was gone from the call for a couple of minutes and then reported that the offset built into the carillo rods for this application is 0.050 inch or fifty thousandths of an inch. That is just a little under one and one third millimeter. Then he said it is negative offset; and when I aked him if that meant that the offset was toward the center of the crank throw, he at first agreed, then after a few moments he corrected himself and said that it was actually toward the fillet part of the rod journal, in otherwords, as I understtod him, away from the center of the rod journal.
He described that the offset is built into the rod so that the small end and the shaft or beam of the rod is lined up with the center of the bore and affixed to the big end of the rod offset as described.
Then I asked him what the purpose was of the offset and he gave an explaination similar to what Greg Brown has been saying. However when I asked him about the free rocking tendency of the pistons with the piston pin offset from center as are many Porsche pistons, all he could say was that it is on a different plane.
I guess the conclusion is that the piston can rock offcenter in one plane, but not in the other even though there is the cylinder bore, the pin bosses and the pin and rod end to resist it in one plane but nothing but the piston skirt and cylinder wall to resist it in the other. You know that there is no piston skirt to keep the piston from rocking in the bore, in the plane of the wrist pin, right?
I also asked around from some who may have as much or more time driving 928 strokers that maybe Greg Brown has building them and find that using one or the other of the rods, offset or standard is really no big deal. There is no data to support the failure rate of these 928 stroker conversion using standard Chevy rods. So, all of the stroker engines that I've redone, due to bore failure from the piston rocking don't count, because I've done them?
Jerry Feather
BTW....I built Mark Anderson's very first stroker....must have been 20 years ago. Who has been driving a stroker longer than that?
Never mind.
I'd be more than happy to send you Carrillo's own engineering report on the forces involved using the incorrect rod offset....but I don't think it would do anything to change your mind...so that would also be a complete waste of time.
I do wish you success in your endeavors, but frankly I feel that this discussion, with you, is a hopeless waste of time.
If you decide that you want a set of Carrillo rods with 5.850" length and Chevy offsets, I've got several slightly used sets available....with either Porsche or Chevy pin sizes.
You are an interesting human being, Jerry Feather.
10-24-2011, 08:32 PM
#180
Rennlist Member
Hi Greg. I do not agree with much you have had to say on this thread, but some, and I think you have incorporated some "salesman puffing" about several things you have said, but I actually think that if we were closer in proximity and could meet personally, we might have a lot in common, and might even be friends. I'm sorry that is not too likely.
I am not going to post my analysis about the silly crank that I have for $1200 as it relates to what you have said about it or around it, because I really don't want to do any damage to your professional reputation or to you personally. I don't think you realize how well I might be able to fit everything you have said here and before, in 2007, about this crank issue, into what the chief judge recently said was the best closing argument that he has ever heard.
Let's bury the hatchet.
Jerry Feather
I am not going to post my analysis about the silly crank that I have for $1200 as it relates to what you have said about it or around it, because I really don't want to do any damage to your professional reputation or to you personally. I don't think you realize how well I might be able to fit everything you have said here and before, in 2007, about this crank issue, into what the chief judge recently said was the best closing argument that he has ever heard.
Let's bury the hatchet.
Jerry Feather