Condition Matters
08-06-2011, 10:48 AM
#16
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Ah ....."US $16,600.00
Reserve pricenot met "
All this discussion and the car has not hit the reserve......what are the odds it is shill bidding running this one up close to the reserve ???? It happens ALL the time.
And only restore a car you LOVE because you are probably never going to want to sell it ......for what someone else will pay you.
Reserve pricenot met "
All this discussion and the car has not hit the reserve......what are the odds it is shill bidding running this one up close to the reserve ???? It happens ALL the time.
And only restore a car you LOVE because you are probably never going to want to sell it ......for what someone else will pay you.
08-06-2011, 11:12 AM
#17
If all you think about when you see a nice car is how much the owner may or may not get when they sell it, you need to start taking the bus!!
This money argument is always a losing battle. Try buying a new car!! You lose there too!!
These cars are a passion, a hobby and an experience, nothing more!
Similar to building the plasic model cars as a kid. The fun for some is in the building, not what we expect to get from it when done!
I waste more coin on skiing, mountain biking, beloning to a gym, etc etc. Never does some one in those hobbies say " you'll never get your money back out of this ski vacation".
A car is a car is a car, no automotive engineer ever designed an investment!
08-06-2011, 01:56 PM
#18
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I have the engine of the 78 out, cleaned and sprayed in clear engine paint. The intake manifolds are almost all polished. I have four more tubes to finish on the wheel. The fire wall is coated with Lizard Skin and ready to paint. Hope to get it cleaned and primed this weekend. Next step is sending the hardware out for plating. Nickel for the engine hardware.
In restoring many things can be addressed that are known problem areas. Enhancements can be made so the finished product is better than new. A car that is low mileage and stored for years - even under perfect conditions will not be as good as a proper restoration. A low mileage car may not need upholstery or maybe paint, but it will still need to be torn down and gone throiugh.
And a comment on paint. The original paint on the 928 was not all that great. The clear coat - like most german cars of the time peels. Today's paint systems are much superior to the original paint. The same is true of Rob's interior work on the 86. The end product is much better than what came with the car. Even the leather is better quality. I would rather have a rebuilt dash and pod from Just Dashes than one that has been preserved by luck and the grace of God.
In restoring many things can be addressed that are known problem areas. Enhancements can be made so the finished product is better than new. A car that is low mileage and stored for years - even under perfect conditions will not be as good as a proper restoration. A low mileage car may not need upholstery or maybe paint, but it will still need to be torn down and gone throiugh.
And a comment on paint. The original paint on the 928 was not all that great. The clear coat - like most german cars of the time peels. Today's paint systems are much superior to the original paint. The same is true of Rob's interior work on the 86. The end product is much better than what came with the car. Even the leather is better quality. I would rather have a rebuilt dash and pod from Just Dashes than one that has been preserved by luck and the grace of God.
Dan- at the risk of playing semantics, from your description above, you're not really 'restoring' so much as resto-modding. And that's fine, I have done a bunch of that with my car too. While lizard skinning your fire wall might be a superior noise and heat solution to the factory foil stuff, it ain't restoration. And I respectfully disagree about the old paint systems. The single stage black on my GT still looks new (when it's not covered with dust and bee poo), I'll take high-VOC environmentally unfriendly single stage over whatever water-based stuff they're shooting today, any day. The PO of my GTS spent $11,000 on a repaint with whatever Spies-Hecker was selling in 2004. It looks good, but it's not as good as the 21 year old paint on the GT. Let's see what today's boxsters look like in 2032......
I suspect most folks would also disagree with you about a rebuilt dash and pod vs. a perfect original. Unless you want some non-original color or material, I suppose.
People spend six figures to do rotisserie restorations of Corvettes and Chevelles. How many-fold more parts and pieces are there in an '86 928 vs. a '69 SS396? It's going to be a long time (if ever) before a complete nuts and bolts restoration of a 928 will make fiscal sense, and by then so many of the needed trim/rubber/linings pieces will be NLA one won't be able to build a '100 point' 928, unless the marque goes the way of the XKE or the 356, where you can buy accurate repro versions of everything.
In the mean time, the original pieces (and cars) will only continue to increase in value.
08-07-2011, 07:13 AM
#19
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Rob,
There is a difference in the single stage paints and those with clear coat. The clear coat burns off after a time. This was a problem with all German cars in that time frame. Well perhaps not the mercedes.
I read on the list that there are points deducted for non original cars. I wonder how far that goes in judging. With the 78 cars the fire wall protection was in adequate. The 78 did not have the aluminum foil fire wall. it was a problem with that model year and perhaps for a couple of years. The stuff is so bad that it melts down on to the exhaust shield. I will have pictures later. So the choice is to replace the insulation with a pad from a newer car - which is hard to get off in one piece and is not an exact match or use an alternative product. On Eric's car we chose Dyna Mat. it worked but was a pain to install and has dynamat written all over it. On my car I decided on the Lizard Skin because it looks like a nice product and it was much easier to install - time will tell. Plus it is paintable.
So you bring up an interesting point. Is it restoring if you improve the car as you go along. Should I contine to use the Aluminum ball joints? They are still good and original - but i am putting in new lower steel ball joints. I am also improving the inadequate brakes with S brakes off an 84 as well as front shock adjusters.
As far as a restoration I have been through a few 928s and it is always a pain. Trying to fix the bad things about a car appears to be more work than just tearing things down to scratch and starting from there. The 78 is coming along nicely and it is a much better end product than the 85 Gold Car. The extra expense is not that much more either.
As far as paints there is no way any enamel based paint is going to give the depth of a show car.
So are there points taken off for polishing the intake, upgrading bad brakes, changing motor mounts to the newer mounts, applying a hand rubbed paint job, polishing the rims and upgrading the radio??
BTW that leather job on the 86 on e-Bay is a fablous job. I will probably be adding some leather for the interior for the door panels and the rear quarters. That will not be stock nor will the changes to the carpet pading - that black foam stuff has to go.
There is a difference in the single stage paints and those with clear coat. The clear coat burns off after a time. This was a problem with all German cars in that time frame. Well perhaps not the mercedes.
I read on the list that there are points deducted for non original cars. I wonder how far that goes in judging. With the 78 cars the fire wall protection was in adequate. The 78 did not have the aluminum foil fire wall. it was a problem with that model year and perhaps for a couple of years. The stuff is so bad that it melts down on to the exhaust shield. I will have pictures later. So the choice is to replace the insulation with a pad from a newer car - which is hard to get off in one piece and is not an exact match or use an alternative product. On Eric's car we chose Dyna Mat. it worked but was a pain to install and has dynamat written all over it. On my car I decided on the Lizard Skin because it looks like a nice product and it was much easier to install - time will tell. Plus it is paintable.
So you bring up an interesting point. Is it restoring if you improve the car as you go along. Should I contine to use the Aluminum ball joints? They are still good and original - but i am putting in new lower steel ball joints. I am also improving the inadequate brakes with S brakes off an 84 as well as front shock adjusters.
As far as a restoration I have been through a few 928s and it is always a pain. Trying to fix the bad things about a car appears to be more work than just tearing things down to scratch and starting from there. The 78 is coming along nicely and it is a much better end product than the 85 Gold Car. The extra expense is not that much more either.
As far as paints there is no way any enamel based paint is going to give the depth of a show car.
So are there points taken off for polishing the intake, upgrading bad brakes, changing motor mounts to the newer mounts, applying a hand rubbed paint job, polishing the rims and upgrading the radio??
BTW that leather job on the 86 on e-Bay is a fablous job. I will probably be adding some leather for the interior for the door panels and the rear quarters. That will not be stock nor will the changes to the carpet pading - that black foam stuff has to go.
08-07-2011, 11:38 AM
#20
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In a word YES ! ..."So are there points taken off for polishing the intake, upgrading bad brakes, changing motor mounts to the newer mounts, applying a hand rubbed paint job, polishing the rims and upgrading the radio??"
The paint is the only area where it need not be as stock but needs to be a factory color preferably the original for that car that year.
At one Jaguar show one guy lost points for having polished the underside of his alloy hood...another lost points for leather door panels on his XK120 as they only came in vinyl. XKE got deduct for triple carbs when his 69 only came with two....I know because I was one of the judges
The paint is the only area where it need not be as stock but needs to be a factory color preferably the original for that car that year.
At one Jaguar show one guy lost points for having polished the underside of his alloy hood...another lost points for leather door panels on his XK120 as they only came in vinyl. XKE got deduct for triple carbs when his 69 only came with two....I know because I was one of the judges
08-07-2011, 12:13 PM
#21
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and more points can be lost if the flat black parts are too glossy, or are finished in the wrong color of/or shade of black, and if the various cad plated parts are done with the wrong process and are too shiney, or not enough, or a wrong bolt or nut style is used, or if the screw heads are not aligned with each other, or a washer is left off, or if rubber parts do not have the proper impressions and part numbers and the like cast in, or a hose clamp is aftermarket instead of OE, on and on....undercoating is always a point of contention, many undercoats were aftermarket even when the car was new, but if it is not "factory" then plan to remove it all....or lose many points.
I am not of the opinion that many 928's will ever be truely "restored" or not at least restored to "concours condition". Too complex and too many parts NLA OE to do it in a cost effective manner.....anything can be done of course, if someone with unlimited time, unlimited resources, and unlimited skill decides to do it for Pebble's Beach Concours.....
The car in the OP that started this thread is not by any means a "restoration". More what the hot rodders call a "resto-mod". It is a nice car, looks well done, but not a restoration as generally used in the trade...
I am not of the opinion that many 928's will ever be truely "restored" or not at least restored to "concours condition". Too complex and too many parts NLA OE to do it in a cost effective manner.....anything can be done of course, if someone with unlimited time, unlimited resources, and unlimited skill decides to do it for Pebble's Beach Concours.....
The car in the OP that started this thread is not by any means a "restoration". More what the hot rodders call a "resto-mod". It is a nice car, looks well done, but not a restoration as generally used in the trade...
08-07-2011, 02:15 PM
#22
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Here's an arcane illustration of why I think the original pieces are the best, and how freaking hard it'll be to do a 100 point resto on a 928 barn find in 2040.
Take the lowly driver's side floor pad/carpet. The top surface isn't too bad, black sliverknit, some nylon binding, a ribbed plastic heel pad:
It might present a challenge to match the heel pad, it's a little complex. The upholsterer might find some ribbed plastic sheet that matches the rib pattern, but they wouldn't be able to match the perpendicular stripes at the bottom of the opening for the gas pedal, nor the non-ribbed border around the periphery, without having it custom molded:
But then you get to the underside. The 3/4" foam pad was molded with this specific ribbing pattern.
Why did the factory bother with that? Most "restoration" upholsterers are going to pull out their roll of 1/2" dynaliner and slap a same-sized piece on the underside of the carpet. But if you look at the floor of the car the carpet/pad is going into, the same ribbing pattern is pressed into the floorboard, so the carpet pad doesn't slip around. (And no, the foam pad doesn't just 'mold' or conform to the floor over the years, there are other features on the floorboard that haven't 'transferred ' into the foam.)
Floorboard:
So how many hours would it take a re-manufacturer to re-create a '100 point' carpet/pad for a restoration? This is why the original pieces are the best (and 'only original once', as they say), and why this blank-sheet-of-paper car that Porsche created is so cool.
Take the lowly driver's side floor pad/carpet. The top surface isn't too bad, black sliverknit, some nylon binding, a ribbed plastic heel pad:
It might present a challenge to match the heel pad, it's a little complex. The upholsterer might find some ribbed plastic sheet that matches the rib pattern, but they wouldn't be able to match the perpendicular stripes at the bottom of the opening for the gas pedal, nor the non-ribbed border around the periphery, without having it custom molded:
But then you get to the underside. The 3/4" foam pad was molded with this specific ribbing pattern.
Why did the factory bother with that? Most "restoration" upholsterers are going to pull out their roll of 1/2" dynaliner and slap a same-sized piece on the underside of the carpet. But if you look at the floor of the car the carpet/pad is going into, the same ribbing pattern is pressed into the floorboard, so the carpet pad doesn't slip around. (And no, the foam pad doesn't just 'mold' or conform to the floor over the years, there are other features on the floorboard that haven't 'transferred ' into the foam.)
Floorboard:
So how many hours would it take a re-manufacturer to re-create a '100 point' carpet/pad for a restoration? This is why the original pieces are the best (and 'only original once', as they say), and why this blank-sheet-of-paper car that Porsche created is so cool.
08-07-2011, 03:53 PM
#23
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+1 documented low mileage can't be fixed, and pretty much trumps everything else. Next is maybe original conditon, last is restoration.
I think I would be struck by lightening if I were ever to own more than about a 50 point car, and I suspect that is an optimistic appraisal from my lack of knowledge in the point system.
Its wonderful that we have people willing to put the time and money into making beautiful 928's, preserving the breed etc, but if I want to brag to normal people about the 928 its cars like Bill Ball, the Mark's, etc have that are out doing what Porsche's do best, go faster.
I am also not to worried about the parts needed to make 100 point cars, because people who own 100 point cars very often have "elastic" amounts of money and time to put into them. Also small scale reproduction capability seems to be increasing all the time.
I think I would be struck by lightening if I were ever to own more than about a 50 point car, and I suspect that is an optimistic appraisal from my lack of knowledge in the point system.
Its wonderful that we have people willing to put the time and money into making beautiful 928's, preserving the breed etc, but if I want to brag to normal people about the 928 its cars like Bill Ball, the Mark's, etc have that are out doing what Porsche's do best, go faster.
I am also not to worried about the parts needed to make 100 point cars, because people who own 100 point cars very often have "elastic" amounts of money and time to put into them. Also small scale reproduction capability seems to be increasing all the time.
08-07-2011, 05:03 PM
#24
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Its wonderful that we have people willing to put the time and money into making beautiful 928's, preserving the breed etc, but if I want to brag to normal people about the 928 its cars like Bill Ball, the Mark's, etc have that are out doing what Porsche's do best, go faster.
And despite 236K miles, they would be hard to tell from new. Today....
08-08-2011, 01:30 PM
#26
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Ah ....."US $16,600.00
Reserve pricenot met "
All this discussion and the car has not hit the reserve......what are the odds it is shill bidding running this one up close to the reserve ???? It happens ALL the time.
And only restore a car you LOVE because you are probably never going to want to sell it ......for what someone else will pay you.
Reserve pricenot met "
All this discussion and the car has not hit the reserve......what are the odds it is shill bidding running this one up close to the reserve ???? It happens ALL the time.
And only restore a car you LOVE because you are probably never going to want to sell it ......for what someone else will pay you.
Last edited by SteveG; 08-09-2011 at 11:38 AM.
08-08-2011, 01:49 PM
#27
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Read his posts. Not a person who would sell at a loss I think. Nor rack-up full retail repair costs. Just a hunch. Love the interior and exterior color. Seats aren't right.
08-08-2011, 04:04 PM
#29
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No, I think his accumulated expenditure is probably right about $15K, maybe considerably less.
After all, the car needed paint and interior and engine refresh. Base buy-in? Pretty low if it were me.
Paint? $3500 max for a quality job w/ my pro friends doing it. Interior - money spent, flew a crew in, though allegiant air tickets are really cheap in/out of Orlando. And check the seats.
Again, sorry, not buying the hype. Am too close to the game.
After all, the car needed paint and interior and engine refresh. Base buy-in? Pretty low if it were me.
Paint? $3500 max for a quality job w/ my pro friends doing it. Interior - money spent, flew a crew in, though allegiant air tickets are really cheap in/out of Orlando. And check the seats.
Again, sorry, not buying the hype. Am too close to the game.
08-08-2011, 04:40 PM
#30
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It is possible to have 40K+ in a 928, I paid 10K for my Euro-S 5spd on ebay 8yrs ago(when the economy was better) & put 20K more into it without touching,paint,interior, no major engine work or transmission work, so total $30K I have in it, to get my car looking like the ebay car would take more money on top for new paint & an equal condition interior.